Post Number: 2705
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:55 am: || |
I watch Amazing Facts/Fiction every so often just to remind myself of what I left. This morning Doug Batchelor was talking about the Syrian healed of leprosy by dipping in the Jordan 7 times. Without missing a beat he said when Jesus tells us to do something he means it, like keeping the sabbath. Then he went on. He just slips it in there and people do not realize he did it.
Then in the question and answer period some one asked about Luke 23:42, 43 where Jesus told the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise". My question is, where did the Adventist come up with the lack of a comma after "today". I learned in SDA schooling that the people who copied the Bible did not put a comma there because it the greek there is no comma. That is what Doug said this morning. But where did it originate that a comma belonged after today? Is that an ellenism?
Post Number: 1439
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:07 am: || |
If i remember from Chris Lee's explanation some time back, the way the greek is written, you know where punctuation belongs. There is something about the phrase and how it was written. But I don't remember the exact details.
Post Number: 93
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 12:42 pm: || |
I wasn't quite clear on the question. I looked up the passage on biblegateway.com in several versions and there isn't a comma after "today". Do the SDA's put a comma after "today"? Like "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."?? Instead of "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise"??
That would be so much like the Jehovah's Witnesses and their New World Translation.
If you think about it, how often did Jesus say "I tell you the truth today". As opposed to what? I tell you the truth today unlike the lies I told you yesterday? Or I might just change my mind about this tomorrow?
Post Number: 1432
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 1:24 pm: || |
That is exactly what they do--it's how Ellen taught them to quote it. EGW, who knew nothing about the Greek (as is evidenced throughout her writings!), said that the comma should be after the word "today"--just because it didn't fit her theology the way every (legitimate) English translation has it, of course.
I found a previous post on this forum, by "Lynn W," which gives the Clear Word's translation of the verse:
I think they not only don't know the rules of simple grammar, but they take their liberties at rewriting scripture to fit their doctrine.
The SDA Clear Word "Bible" has Luke 23:43 like this: Jesus turned His head toward him and said, "I promise you today, when I return with the glory of my Father, I will take you home with me to paradise."
Mark Finley really blows it in his Discoveries in Prophecy series. He says it this way: And Jesus looked at that thief, and He said, "I say unto you today, this day that I hang on the cross, this day with blood running down my face, this day that it doesn't look like I can save anybody, this day that Judas has betrayed me, and the Jews have forsaken me, and my disciples have fled, and the Romans are crucifying me, I say unto you, this day, this day of my death, you will be with me one day in paradise."
The interesting thing is, throughout his video series, whenever he quotes scripture, they always show it printed on the screen, but the whole time he's saying this stuff, they never do. And the sorriest part is, when he's done instead of saying, "hey wait a minute!" like they should have, the people said amen! A huge auditorium of people just sat there. I guess none of them own Bibles.
Post Number: 2706
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 1:45 pm: || |
So it is an "ellenism". That is what I thought.
I made a mistake when I first wrote this. I learned in SDA school that the writer forgot to put in the comma. That is what Batchelor said this morning, along with the fact that the Greeks did not use commas. I was half asleep when I wrote this. I am dog sitting for my sister while she is on vacation, on a cruise to Alaska. I will be doing the same on Aug 12-19 with the sister I went to Mexico with last Sept. I am not used to dogs sleeping with me. They are good dogs though.
Post Number: 94
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 2:12 pm: || |
Come to think of it, my husband mentioned that verse/comma a few years ago. Since he doesn't read the bible, I just thought maybe he didn't remember it right. Now it makes sense as I'm finding out how deep the SDA doctrines are steering him.
Diana, don't feel bad! Honest mistake. I know I couldn't think straight if my sister was having fun on a cruise while I had to sleep with her dogs, haha!!
Post Number: 95
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 2:16 pm: || |
Melissa, you reminded me - does anyone here use a Greek inter-linear bible? Over the years I've thought about getting one, and especially now that I want to do some studying with my hunny. If so, what are your thoughts?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Post Number: 181
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:32 pm: || |
As I was reading this, I thought that I recalled that the Greek manuscripts did not use punctuation and it was added later; and when they did, at some point in time, it was different than ours, especially with their very different languauge.
So I googled some sites to be sure. On some sites, they described the Greek NT as written like one long, run-on sentence in the books.
Here is a Greek NT teaching course. I will post one blurb:
Chapter 4: Punctuation and Syllabification--
'When the New Testament was first written there were no punctuation marks. In fact, the words were run together one after another without any separation. Punctuation and versification entered the text of manuscripts at a much later period.
'Obviously this has created some difficulties for contemporary scholars since the way a verse is punctuated can have a significant effect on the interpretation of the verse...'
Here is a short page just for interest on the Greek NT:
I have a Greek/English NT, but I find reliable translations just as good. Sometimes, I have found interesting insights in it, but I don't depend on it, unless I have a specific question and need it for reference.
I don't think Ellen's advisors about ancient manuscripts were very educated about it (I may be wrong; perhaps, she just changed it) or just threw out what was established NT Greek church history because "the Catholic scholars studied it". (whom were and are as scholarly & honest as anyone else, btw. Not all were corrupt.)
Leigh Anne, on Amazon.com, you can find a Greek/English Bible (or any other Greek kind of Bible you want) at less the cost than anywhere else, most likely.
It's good that we look into these historical, original things, imho. It can take away doubt and confusion about some things.
Post Number: 104
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:09 pm: || |
Well, to be fair about this, I must point out that Jesus himself didn't ascend to Paradise on the same day He died, so how could the thief be "with" Jesus in Paradise that day? Jesus didn't ascend to heaven until after he first spent the Sabbath day in the grave, right?
Post Number: 128
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:40 pm: || |
In early Christian (and current Orthodox Christian) thought, paradise is not the same as heaven. Jesus went to hades when He died, and paradise is generally seen as the "part" of hades where the righteous are, I think.
There's a section in the writings of Josephus about Paradise and Abraham's bosom etc.
Hades couldn't hold Jesus, and because of that, hades will not forever hold us who are with Jesus.
Post Number: 4401
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:54 pm: || |
Honestwitness, when Jesus died He said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit." He released His Spirit to the Father at the moment of His death.
His ascent to the Father as a RESURRECTED Savior didn't happen until later. It was the resurrection which completed our salvation. It was the resurrection which broke the power of death and destroyed the curse of the law. It was the resurrection which promised us new life, not merely forgiveness. Without the resurrection, we would be forgiven but still dead.
No, Jesus didn't go to sit down at the Father's right hand until after His resurrection and glorification. He did, however, release His Spirit to God at the moment of His death. Both He and that thief were spiritually present with God that day.
Post Number: 1433
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:00 pm: || |
As Jeremiah said, Paradise referred to the section of Hades/Sheol where the righteous dead were before Christ's ascension. After Christ's ascension (when those in Paradise went to heaven), heaven is referred to as Paradise.
But to say that Jesus did not ascend to heaven when He died is also not accurate, since He committed His spirit into the Father's hands. Jesus Christ committed His spirit into the Father's hands, went to Paradise (Hades) and was with the thief that day as He promised, and also made proclamation to the spirits in prison (torment section of Hades), according to 1 Peter 3:19.
Also, since Jesus is God, that means that He is omnipresent and is everywhere the Father is. This was true even when He was physically dead. Jesus is God and God did not cease to exist. Neither did his "humanity" cease and His "divinity" live on (which would be Gnosticism). This is why it is crucial to understand that man has a spirit which is something real, and which continues to be conscious after death.
When Jesus told Mary after His resurrection that He had not yet ascended to the Father, He was talking about ascending bodily/physically.
(Message edited by jeremy on July 30, 2006)
Post Number: 129
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:57 pm: || |
Heaven and Paradise being the same thing after Jesus ascended to heaven, as Jeremy said, is not quite what the early Christians believed, if what Tertullian wrote in 200 AD can be trusted.
Chapter LV.-The Christian Idea of the Position of Hades; The Blessedness of Paradise Immediately After Death. The Privilege of the Martyrs.
By ourselves the lower regions (of Hades) are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels; inasmuch as we read that Christ in His death spent three days in the heart of the earth, that is, in the secret inner recess which is hidden in the earth, and enclosed by the earth, and superimposed on the abysmal depths which lie still lower down. Now although Christ is God, yet, being also man, "He died according to the Scriptures," and "according to the same Scriptures was buried." With the same law of His being He fully complied, by remaining in Hades in the form and condition of a dead man; nor did He ascend into the heights of heaven before descending into the lower parts of the earth, that He might there make the patriarchs and prophets partakers of Himself. (This being the case), you must suppose Hades to be a subterranean region, and keep at arm's length those who are too proud to believe that the souls of the faithful deserve a place in the lower regions. These persons, who are "servants above their Lord, and disciples above their Master," would no doubt spurn to receive the comfort of the resurrection, if they must expect it in Abraham's bosom. But it was for this purpose, say they, that Christ descended into hell, that we might not ourselves have to descend thither. Well, then, what difference is there between heathens and Christians, if the same prison awaits them all when dead? How, indeed, shall the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is already sitting at the Father's right hand, when as yet the archangel's trumpet has not been heard by the command of God, -when as yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth, have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming, in company with the dead in Christ, who shall be the first to arise? To no one is heaven opened; the earth is still safe for him, I would not say it is shut against him. When the world, indeed, shall pass away, then the kingdom of heaven shall be opened. Shall we then have to sleep high up in ether, with the boy-loving worthies of Plato; or in the air with Arius; or around the moon with the Endymions of the Stoics? No, but in Paradise, you tell me, whither already the patriarchs and prophets have removed from Hades in the retinue of the Lord's resurrection. How is it, then, that the region of Paradise, which as revealed to John in the Spirit lay under the altar, displays no other souls as in it besides the souls of the martyrs? How is it that the most heroic martyr Perpetua on the day of her passion saw only her fellow-martyrs there, in the revelation which she received of Paradise, if it were not that the sword which guarded the entrance permitted none to go in thereat, except those who had died in Christ and not in Adam? A new death for God, even the extraordinary one for Christ, is admitted into the reception-room of mortality, specially altered and adapted to receive the new-comer. Observe, then, the difference between a heathen and a Christian in their death: if you have to lay down your life for God, as the Comforter counsels, it is not in gentle fevers and on soft beds, but in the sharp pains of martyrdom: you must take up the cross and bear it after your Master, as He has Himself instructed you. The sole key to unlock Paradise is your own life's blood. You have a treatise by us, (on Paradise), in which we have established the position that every soul is detained in safe keeping in Hades until the day of the Lord.
Post Number: 97
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:18 pm: || |
This is a fascintating subject! I like it. It also answers a question that has plagued me all my life (39 years) at my Lutheran church. We say the Apostles Creed on a semi-regular basis and I always get stuck on "He decended into hell" or "He decended to the dead". "What the heck does that mean??" I would think. Well, I recently bought a book about the creed but still, it didn't quite explain it enough to my liking. Long story short, this thread has really cleared it up for me.
Thank you! I sure wish we all lived in the same area and could have some good weekly bible studies...
Post Number: 267
|Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:28 pm: || |
Here's what The Complete Word Study Dictionary-NT edited by Spiros Zodhiates says about "Paradise" (Gr: paradeisos):
"In later Jewish usage and in the NT, paradeisos is used for the abode of the blessed after death. Paradise, before Christ's resurrection, has been thought to be the region of the blessed in Hades although it was not specifically called by that name (Luke 16:23). Jesus said He would take the repentant thief with Him to paradise (Luke 23:43).
Hades in the NT was the world or abode of the dead in general. According to the notions of the Jews, Hades was a vast subterranean area where the souls or the spirits of the dead existed in separate states until the resurrection of their bodies. The region of the blessed during this interval, or the inferior paradise, was thought to be in the upper part of this receptacle. Beneath was the abyss, Gehenna or Tartarus, in which the souls of the wicked were subjected to punishment."
Hope this helps.
Post Number: 234
|Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 1:28 pm: || |
Original manuscripts had no divisions, no verses, paragraphs. Much was written even without spaces between words. The first divisions began around 900 A.D. With gradual sentences and paragraphs following gradually. One source says entire punctuation was not completed until 1200 A.D.
Needless to say, punctuation, division of sentences and paragraphs does not fall under "the inspiration of the Scriptures." Much is left to contextural, historical study. What is necessary for salvation is clear enough for a child to understand it; but knit-picking will continue until Christ returns.
Post Number: 2711
|Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 1:45 pm: || |
All that is essential to salvation is and can be known, even by a child. And that essential is Jesus Christ. All the other is interesting for discussion , debating and as you say nit picking. The important thing is known. Thank you Jesus. You are awesome.
Post Number: 1440
|Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 6:31 pm: || |
Jess, great observation. Seems we divide over the division... haha!
Post Number: 120
|Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 2:20 pm: || |
www.sdaoutreach.com has some great mp3's about the afterlife.
Post Number: 1437
|Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 2:56 pm: || |
Mwh, I think you meant www.sdaoutreach.org, since the .com is an SDA site.
Post Number: 121
|Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 4:44 am: || |
Oh yes, sorry about that one. Oh my SDA are so sneaky buying up domains like that.