| Author |
Message |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 117
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 1:02 pm: |     |
Bb,
I would tell her that you are no longer an SDA unless you have little or nothing to do with her. If she is an important part of your life I do think I would share at least that with her. I was suprised to find that one of my family members was comforted by the fact that I base my new beliefs on the Bible and I am not simply turning my back on the "truth".
I wrote a letter to my family. I was too chicken to do it face to face because I didn't want to see the pained reaction.
One dear sweet old SDA lady that lives quite far from me has no idea that I am no longer an SDA. At one time in my life she was like a mother to me. We correspond by letters every once in a great while. In her last letter she told me that she would be watching 3ABN to see if she would see a ministry I was involved in so I know she doesn't know. I don't plan on telling her. I know she has a tremendous heart for Jesus and genuine Christian love so I have no doubts about her eternal home. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2766
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 2:39 pm: | |
Bb,
All I can say is pray about it. God will let you know if and when to say something to your mother.
The same for you U2. God will let you know if and when to say something to these women.
I am one of the formers that does not have close family/friends that are SDA. So, I have not had to go through that.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4513
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:24 pm: | |
Bbóask God to guide you regarding your mother. He will give you opportunities and words to speak according to His timing. I agree with Jeremy that people do need to hear the true gospel. When God gives you an opportunity to share Jesus with her, He'll also give you the words to speak. He can take care of her heart, as well, as you tell her the words of truth.
Colleen |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 7:27 pm: | |
Hello All!
Being able to "break the news" to the people we love - and who love us - with wisdom and compassion is surely a gift from our God. Only He can sooth all of our spirits. Bb, I have the same feeling about my folks. I have been telling them gradually. Mostly by rejoicing in sharing what a difference God is making in my life. Just last week my dad and I had a long and loving talk about Mrs. White. You know what? He thinks the same thing that I do! It just doesn't bother him as much. I'm okay with that.
At times, as I've been processing out, I was distressed and worried about them, and I've really stressed about how to witness to them. But you know what? I've decided that the very best witness I can give is the one that my friends gave me that made me so curious...it was their great joy in the Lord.
A friend in our study group gave me this. It has really meant a lot to me. If I have shared it here before, I apologize, and I hope that you-all find it useful again.
ìOne is not justified by believing in justification by faith. One is justified by believing in Jesus. It follows quite clearly that a great many people are justified by faith who don't know they are justified by faith.
The Galatian Christians were in fact justified by faith, though they didn't realize it and thought they had to be circumcised as well. "...Many pre-Reformation folk were in fact justified by faith, because they believed in Jesus, even though, not knowing about or believing in justification by faith, they lacked assurance and then sought to fill this vacuum in other ways.
Many Christians today may not be very clear about the niceties of doctrine, but...they hold on to Jesus, and according to Paul's teaching, they are therefore justified by faith. They are constituted as members of the family. They must be treated as such.
This is not to say, of course, that justification is an unimportant or inessential doctrine. Far from it. A church that does not grasp it and teach it is heading for trouble. It is to say that the doctrine of justification itself points away from itself. Believing in Jesus--believing that Jesus is Lord, and that God raised him from the dead -- is what counts." N. T. Wright, What Paul Said, pg. 159
You-all have my prayers, and I ask for yours. Diana, I thank you for the Prayer Circle because it gives me a special, dedicated time to look at my list and think of and pray for each of you. I have finially learned to set a timer when I think about it earlier in the day, so that the time won't slip by me. :>)
May God Bless Each Of You On The Search!
Pegg |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 11:11 am: | |
Pegg,
That quote you shared is interesting, but I believe it is flawed.
The author states, "The Galatian Christians were in fact justified by faith, though they didn't realize it and thought they had to be circumcised as well."
Yes, the Galatians were saved. But they had been saved by Paul preaching the true Gospel to them previously. Then later, the Judaizers came along and the Galatians were deceived by them and fell for their false gospel and started believing that they had to be circumcised/keep the Law in order to be justified.
It would actually be an insult to the Apostle Paul, to say that the Galatians had not heard of justification by faith. Of course Paul had preached it to them! He says that they were: "deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel" "than what you accepted" (Galatians 1:6, 9 NIV.)
So, yes the Galatians were saved--but it was not without believing in the true Gospel! They were saved because they had believed Paul's gospel of grace. The Galatian church was founded on the true Gospel. But if this false gospel that the Judaizers had brought in had been adopted and continued to be the gospel taught in the Galatian church, then the next generation of the Galatian church would have been unsaved, lost people. That is why it was so crucial for Paul to immediately correct the Galatians in the strongest of language.
Those who have never believed the true Gospel are just as lost as any Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu. That may sound harsh, but I'm saying it because it is true and it is important to realize this sobering fact. I believe it is very dangerous to assume that someone who does not believe the true Gospel is saved.
Paul says that anyone who preaches a false gospel is eternally condemned:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:8-9 NIV.)
No, a false gospel of trusting Christ plus works (like the Galatian Judaizers were preaching) cannot get people to heaven. Only the true Gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone can save anyone. If I am trusting in Christ plus Law-keeping for salvation, then I am not trusting in Christ for salvation.
Also, with Adventism, there are even more aspects to their false gospel and they have other anti-Christian doctrines besides their false gospel.
So, if we're going to say that they are saved, then why aren't Mormons saved? Why do we say that Mormons are not Christians?
(I am not saying that it is impossible for there to be saved people in the Adventist and Mormon churches, but I am talking about in general. And of course, with Adventism there may be more Christians who join their church, since a lot of Christians have not been warned that it is not a Christian church like they have been with the Mormon church.)
So instead of assuming that our friends and loved ones are saved, let's keep praying for them and sharing the Good News with them--and leave them in God's hands and trust His sovereign will.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on August 30, 2006) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4527
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 12:22 pm: | |
Jeremy, very interesting observations. I agree that the Galatians had known the true gospel of justification by faith. Paul is clear that they are being led astray, bewitched.
Your comment about the next generation of the Galatian church being doomed, unsaved if the Galatian heresy had not been exposed and expunged is very true. It reminds me of something Gary Inrig said in a sermon recently.
He commented that often preachers or teachers who know Jesus adopt, whether as a result of spiritual immaturity or lack of knowing God's word, a point of false doctrine that alters the clarity of the true gospel. While that person is saved himself, he/she may begin to teach this aberrant doctrine, and their children and parishioners may end up not knowing the gospel and never coming to know Christ. Now, I'm not making a statement about election or God's sovereign call. But I am saying that, like the Judaizers, people who claim to know Christóor may actually know Him but are spiritually immatureómay teach false doctrines that obscure the gospel and result in the next generation under their care not hearing the truth.
Of course, God can still call those people to Himself in other ways, but the teacher himself is held responsible for his false teaching. James 3:1 also states that teachers "will be judged more strictly" than others.
Paul is right when he says that we are to "devote [ourselves] to prayer, keeping humble in it with an attitude of thanksgiving" (Colossians 4:2). Submission to the Lord Jesus is the only way to stay rooted in truth and reality.
Colleen |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 6:19 am: | |
Jeremy, I agree with you and would like to add something that really shook me up.
(Gal 5:4 ESV) "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace."
The way I see it, I spent almost all my life trying to be justified by the law. You can try and try to explain it in such a way that says you keep the law because your justified, or whatever, but MY experience says whenever you have to keep it, you are then implying that the law justifies you... |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 46
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 7:08 am: | |
Hi All!
You guys have sent me back to read Galations front to back again.
Keeping On With The Search!
Pegg |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 162
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 8:27 am: | |
(Gal 5:4 ESV) "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace."
Timmy (and all), that's an interesting verse! I'm wondering, what would the average SDA answer to it?
Leigh Anne |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4531
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 9:01 am: | |
Oh, they'll SAY they aren't "justified by the law". They'll say the law-keeping is the result of being justified. But you're right, Timóas soon as you look to the law for a guide to living or a measure of behavior, you're implying, again, that it justifies you.
I realize there are many arguments about this phenomenonóbut experientially, as you said, that's how it comes down. At least for me!
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4532
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 9:04 am: | |
One more thingóColossians 2:14-15 is so interesting. It has the verse that Jesus nailed the lawóthe certificate of debt that was against us and was hostile to us (NASB words) to the cross. The very next verse says, "Having disarmed the rulers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them..."
IOW, nailing the law to the cross in His flesh is what disarmed Satan et al. They no longer have a tool with which to flagellate God's people with guilt. The curse of the law is OVER! Guilt was atoned in Jesus' flesh!
Good news!
Colleen |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 163
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 9:18 am: | |
Colleen, thanks for bringing that up. I was just looking for that verse the other day on Biblegateway, but of course, didn't have the right translation punched in...
You always manage to answer my questions before I even ask them! |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1475
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:52 am: | |
Colleen, you're right that most SDAs will say they are not "justified" by keeping the Law--instead they'll call it "sanctification." But their view of "sanctification" is something that is necessary for salvation--in other words, justification (according to the Bible's definition)!
But EGW did say outright that our keeping of the Law justifies us! Here are a couple of quotes:
quote:"As a result of Adam's disobedience, every human being is a transgressor of the law, and is sold under sin. Unless man repents and is converted, he is under bondage of the law, serving Satan, falling into the deceptions of the enemy, bearing witness against the precepts of Jehovah. Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified. [...]" (Manuscript Releases, Volume Eight, page 98, paragraph 1. [November 23, 1901])
"[...] Have we personal piety? Have we cooperated with divine agencies in a wholehearted, unreserved manner, in weaving into our life's practices the divine principles of God's holy law? It is one thing to talk the law, and it is another thing entirely to practice it. It is the doers of the law that shall be justified before God; for those who do the law represent the character of God, and lie not against the truth." (Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 187, paragraph 1.) [August 3, 1894]
Notice that in that last quote, she misuses Paul's statement about the doers of the Law. Paul's point was that nobody can be saved that way, because they can't keep the Law! But EGW says that's the way we are to be saved. EGW and SDAs do the same thing with some of Jesus' words.
Also notice that both of these quotes come from EGW's "later years," when according to some she supposedly taught the Gospel! That first quote is from 1901. The fact is, she never taught the Gospel. Some quotes may sound like it, but if you keep reading the context you'll see that she has different definitions. Of course, she had a different Jesus anyway, etc.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on August 31, 2006) |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 12:39 pm: | |
Dude..., You have an amazing remembry. They have to do a lot of fancy footwork and double talk to pull off their law/grace theology. I could never do it. You somehow have to state that you are save by grace alone, but have to do the law to be saved..... see, I can't do it.
tim  |
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 12:43 pm: | |
P.S.
Colleen, What's (IOW)?
I like the way you summed up the good news!
ts |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 130
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 1:11 pm: | |
Yes, It's also my understanding that SDAs believe that they are saved by grace through faith, but in order to keep that salvation they need to keep the law.
I can't remember the many times I've heard an SDA preacher say that keeping the law it isn't works based, but they do the law because they love God. The assumption is that if you do not do the law then you do not love God and your salvation is at stake. They talk in circles around the works, but when it comes right down to it - it's very basis is works.
In other words, SDAs believe Jesus died to make it possible to keep the law.
What's sad is the very center of their beliefs - the Sabbath - is so much up to personal interpretation. I could spend Saturday in church or sleeping it away, yet that isn't Saturday keeping to an SDA because I am not an SDA. You have to be against going to a Sunday church in addition to doing your own interpretation of Sabbath rest to be a Sabbath keeper. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4533
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 2:20 pm: | |
IOW=In Other Words. Sorry, Tim!
Jeremy and U2óyou're SO RIGHT! They have made a huge effort in very recent years to publicly insist we are saved by grace through faith. they then go on to promote "sanctification" as the test of being saved.
We listened to a recent sermon on a DVD given by (I can't remember his name)óa pastor at Oakwood College. He was speaking at a youth conference near the end of 2005, I believe. He gave a very convincing-sounding "gospel" sermonóuntil he got to the end where he made his case for law-keepingóand he specifically addressed Sabbathóas the evidence that we are saved.
His words were so well-crafted that if a person didn't fully understand the gospel, they would have been completely fooled. Richard commented that this kind of preaching is even more dangerous than the more blatant law-keeping sermons we used to hear. After being taught this way, he observed, if people ever visit a true evangelical church, they will hear words that sound familiar and tune out because they believe they have already accepted those ideasóexcept they have even more: the Sabbath. In a real sense they are being innoculated against the gospel by the carefully chosen words that APPEAR to speak truthóbut are really a whitewash of historic Adventism.
Even with this "gospel preaching", they still must have the Sabbathóand, if you dig below the surface, they must still believe the human spirit is merely breath, not something that can know God and live eternally.
Colleen |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1468
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 2:31 pm: | |
I guess what fascinates me most is the thought they can 'keep' the law at all. Paul called all his works as filthy rags, and yet he 'kept' the law, even to SDAs, didn't he? If Paul was wretched, what's our best hope??
Wretchedness, to me. It just CAN'T be possible to 'keep' the law as they seem to think it is. I know the SDA I knew said it was possible to 'keep the law with God's help.'
Do ya see my eyes rollin'?? It just does not compute. Even Israel didn't keep the law. NO ONE has kept the law, except God himself. (jesus) Right??
Anyone who says he is without sin calls God a liar!!
|
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 164
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 3:07 pm: | |
I have a question regarding salvation. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says it simply and purely - Ý
(NIV) "1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"
Is there some confusion in the SDA church as to what the word gospel means/stands for? It says right there in scripture that it is by this gospel you are saved.
What was EGW's position on the meaning of the gospel? It seems to me that she thought it was keeping the law...
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4536
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 3:45 pm: | |
Jeremy, you might be able to help us with how Ellen personally identified the gospel.
Leigh Ann, I have heard Adventists address your question a couple of different ways. The more traditional, historic way of answering is to say, "What Paul said was "present truth" for him. Today we have greater light [they call it 'progressive revelation']." By this they mean that the "gospel" is whatever the Bible says it is PLUS the new understanding that the church did not have before(!) of the Sabbath truth or whatever other Ellen-teaching is in question. I have heard this reasoning used to explain the lack of specific commands about food laws in the NT gospel presentations. "Oh, that was present truth for them...now we have new present truth for today."
A more "liberal" view would say the gospel is the "good news" about Jesus and His death and the fact that we can now keep the law [esp. the Sabbath] as a means of showing Him we love Him. In other words, the "gospel" is Jesus plus Adventisms' "unique end-time message for the world."
So. California Adventists might say that the gospel is the good news about Jesusóbut internally they would KNOW that it also included the Sabbath. They just might not tell YOU that, since you are an "outsider"!
Colleen |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 165
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 4:06 pm: | |
And yet, I've heard on many occasion that the SDA church doesn't add to the Bible...
|
Timmy
Registered user
Username: Timmy
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 6:01 pm: | |
IOW=In Other Words... I'll figure out the forum lingo eventually, Thanks!
Now you have to keep in mind that when an SDA somehow "proves" that the ten commandments must be perfectly kept to be justified/sanctified...by grace... he now has to convince his audience that on top of the ten he has to mind the health laws, pay tithe and... not vote... |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1476
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 7:14 pm: | |
EGW defined "the gospel" in various ways. Here are a few statements:
quote:"Many who claim to believe and to teach the gospel are in a similar error. They set aside the Old Testament Scriptures, of which Christ declared, "They are they which testify of Me." John 5:39. In rejecting the Old, they virtually reject the New; for both are parts of an inseparable whole. No man can rightly present the law of God without the gospel, or the gospel without the law. The law is the gospel embodied, and the gospel is the law unfolded. The law is the root, the gospel is the fragrant blossom and fruit which it bears." (Christ's Object Lessons, page 128, paragaph 2.)
"The law and the gospel go hand in hand. The one is the complement of the other. The law without faith in the gospel of Christ cannot save the transgressor of law. The gospel without the law is inefficient and powerless. The law and the gospel are a perfect whole. The Lord Jesus laid the foundation of the building, and He lays 'the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.' Zech. 4:7. He is the author and finisher of our faith, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. The two blended--the gospel of Christ and the law of God--produce the love and faith unfeigned." (Our High Calling, page 141, paragraph 4.)
"In the prophecy this warning of the judgment, with its connected messages, is followed by the coming of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven. The proclamation of the judgment is an announcement of Christ's second coming as at hand. And this proclamation is called the everlasting gospel. Thus the preaching of Christ's second coming, the announcement of its nearness, is shown to be an essential part of the gospel message." (Christ's Object Lessons, page 227, paragraph 2.)
"The light God has given on health reform is for our salvation and the salvation of the world. . . . The Lord has been sending us line upon line, and if we reject these principles, we are not rejecting the messenger who teaches them, but the One who has given us the principles. [...] Let those who have obtained a knowledge of how to eat, and drink, and dress so as to preserve health, impart this knowledge to others. Let the poor have the gospel of health preached unto them from a practical point of view, that they may know how to care properly for the body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit." (Testimony Studies on Diet and Foods, page 193, paragraph 11.)
"Foods that are perfectly healthful and yet inexpensive, are to be made. To the poor the gospel of health is to be preached." (The Health Food Ministry, page 50, paragraph 4.)
"But the gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing his just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same he made in Eden,--perfect obedience to his law. In the Judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in my Son, and continue to transgress my law? Who required this at your hands--to trample upon my rules of righteousness? 'Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.' The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all his subjects obedience, entire obedience to all his commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness only is imputed to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. Oh that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice!" (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 09-21-1886, "Christ Our Sacrifice," paragraph 16.)
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on August 31, 2006) |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 194
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:30 pm: | |
U2bsda,
That was a very strong point you made, that one has to be against 'Sunday Worshippers', to be a true Sabbath-Keeper, in the Adventist paradigm.
It just breaks my heart, when I think of my family, especially, my nephew and nieces.
Us vs. them.
Splitting us all up, so much that some won't have anything to do with my children and me.
Cathy
|
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2332
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:45 pm: | |
Yes, Cathy, I never could figure out how attending a worship service on Sunday made a person violate 'keeping Sabbath holy'. It never made ssense to me. As a child I would wonder how come the SDA's had so many Sunday church services if they were so against going to church on Sunday. Like campmeeting, week of prayer, the boarding schools, and of course all those SDA church programs on 3ABN and Hope Network. If it's wrong for non-SDA's to go to church on Sunday then how come SDA's have so much church on Sunday? |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 166
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 9:54 am: | |
Jeremy,
"Many who claim to believe and to teach the gospel are in a similar error."
Is she talking about the disciples? Paul? So Paul was in error?
Also, the "ever-lasting gospel" and the "gospel of health"? Convenient, she made up her own gospels.
Paul just had one answer for that -
Galatians 1:6-9 (NIV)
"6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospeló 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"
Thanks Jeremy,
Leigh Anne
|
|
