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Message |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 233
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 1:24 am: |     |
"This is where I would draw a line in the sand. I could never attend a church that had a woman senior pastorette. That would by definition be a church that is unbiblical."
Why is that unbiblical? |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 234
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 1:27 am: | |
"Do you think that if archeologists somehow found out that Jesus was without a doubt born in the summer that all Christians would start celebrating Christmas in the summer?" Hannah
I have a difficult time comparing Christmas with Women in Ministry. But does this mean that you think that it is biblical for a Women to lead and teach men? And that it is a tradition that tells the Women that they can't lead or teach men?
In Christ
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Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 235
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 1:32 am: | |
"I have no problem with a woman leader, as long as she preaches from the Bible and the Bible alone." 91steps
I so agree, everybody can lead, women, men, slaves, black, whites, but they should be tested all the time to see if they teach sound doctrine.
Its so sad to see Women who understands the Word of God and are not allowed to teach based on traditions and wrong interpretations of the Bible 
Dear God, I pray to you that more Women will be set free to practice their gifts of teaching and leading that you have given them, please break the tradition of man, open our eyes to your word, reveal to us the hard passages in the bible on women leadership and teaching. Amen
"There is ìno lawî to counteract, or negate, the fruits of the Spirit" Gal. 5:23 |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 236
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 1:35 am: | |
"Women are really in charge, don't you see? We're just so good at leading that men believe it is they who are holding the positions of real leadership." Honestwitness
Are you joking? I would call that practicing deception, and I believe thats not of God.
In Christ |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 164
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 4:30 am: | |
Yes, I'm joking. I guess the tongue in my cheek wasn't as obvious as I thought it would be.
And if we should decide to take my comment seriously after all, it wouldn't be deception. It would be subtlety. And maybe even a little modesty and humility mixed in.
Have you ever had a crying baby keep you up all night? What happens to the "headship of the family" concept then? We're all easily reduced to servants at a time like that. God is the one who raises up leaders for His own purposes, and He is fully able to use either gender, regardless of our "titles." He chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, remember?
Honestwitness |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 165
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 4:49 am: | |
Please think back, if you will, to Solomon's wise decision to grant the one remaining infant to the woman who was willing to give up her baby to keep it alive, instead of receiving only half of her baby, and dead at that.
I see the concept of the leadership of women as that little baby. We may need to refrain from grasping at it, in order to have it granted to us willingly by both God and men. If it's not willingly granted, it's not worth having.
If, however we demonstrate by our character qualities that we can be trusted with leadership, God and men will be happy and relieved to acknowldge our leadership roles, regardless of our official titles.
Honestwitness
(Message edited by honestwitness on October 29, 2006) |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 679
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 5:01 am: | |
 You have a good point here Honestwitness.
I caught the joke in your earlier post as well.
If the definition of a leader is as Jesus stated it "He that would be great among you, let him be a servant", fits many people of both sexes, and of many different ages and stations in life.
Mary |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 237
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 6:00 am: | |
Hello everybody!
Wanted to share this post:
--- snip ---
Godly women need to repent?
My heart goes out to Pastors who are so engrained in tradition that they can easily justify sending godly women to hell. This past weekend I spoke with a Pastor from a denomination that does not believe that women are allowed to teach the bible to men. I asked him several questions regarding his view and his answers were very eye-opening to me.
1. I asked him if there was a law that forbid godly women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men and he said yes. (Yet every law of God comes from God alone and is never put into the words of a man saying ìI do not allowî. Godís laws are clear, understandable, enforceable and they always have a second or third witness because Godís law are always repeated in scripture.)
2. I asked him if disobeying that ìlawî is sinning against God and he answered yes.
3. I asked him if I teach the bible to men and then do not repent of this sin before I die will I go to hell. He said yes.
Think about this. I will go to hell for teaching correct biblical doctrine. This has nothing to do immorality or a hatred of God. This has everything to do with operating in my God-given gifts. Yet this tradition says that I will go to hell for refusing to kick men out of my bible studies. I must act in a prejudicial way towards my dear brothers in Christ so that God doesnít send me to hell. How Satan must laugh at the church when our traditions have become a cause of separating brothers and sisters in Christ. Women have so much to give to the body of Christ and it is our desire to be allowed to share this knowledge with our brothers.
--- snip ---
We have to have faith in the Word of God, immutable and not elevate tradition of man above the Bible.
Jesus thanks for all the people you have liberated and put with you in the heavenly places! |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 318
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 1:38 pm: | |
I thought your comment was pretty funny honestwitness Mwh, my point about Christmas is that it is a tradition, just like male senior pastors is a tradition. There are many things that churches do that are traditional that make them not a good fit for some people. I mentioned Gospel music in my last post. Other examples for me would be litergy, real communion wine, speaking in tongues, etc. If a woman feels called to be a pastor, even a senior pastor, I am not going to argue with her and say I don't think she is hearing God correctly. But she will have to accept that some people will not attend her church because she is a woman, just like some pastors have to accept that people don't attend their church because churchmembers speak in tongues or whatever.
Conciliatorily,
Hannah
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 4:44 pm: | |
Agapetos,
Once again you have answered a sticky question with much deep Bible wisdom and just wisdom period. What you said about the ìChurchî is why I have so wanted to quit calling our ìChurchî building a church so I just say ìgroupî. I used to want to be a ìchurchî now I are one and you are one.
We are one in Christ.
Now I did what you might call a silly thing this morning before I went to meet with my other ìGroupî of Christians, I stretched out my hand to my computer screen and prayed for each of you and when I did I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit didnít care that it was a computer screen for he knew that I was praying for the people, not the screen.
Now I realize that no matter how much we try, life experiences play a big role in how we see things.
My experience ì it was a woman Pastor that came to my house and prayed the prayer of faith, my wife and I were both saved and I was ìDeliveredî from alcohol and drug use.
The second church group we attended also had a woman Pastor and I have seen God use her mightily to get his work done.
God is truly sovereign and I am thankful that he is. I guess I am just a simpleton, I donít give much of a hoot if itís a woman or a man who cooks, I just eat the food.
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Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 166
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 9:51 am: | |
Stan, I'm sorry it took me so long to answer your question about my conservative PCUSA church practices on allowing women to be senior pastors. I had referred your question to our senior pastor (a male, by the way) and have received his permission to post his response here:
_________________________________
I believe it is possible to hold for the ordination of women in any ministry position, and still hold to the inerrancy of scripture. That's my position. It rests on a fairly technical understanding of the Greek in 1 Timothy 2, which is the key passage in the arguments forbidding/allowing women to be ordained.
But in the framing of the question about women, some things should be noted:
- Paul doesn't seem to make a distinction between "senior pastor" and any other church office. That distinction is a modern one.
- The reason Paul gives for his prohibition is that women, like Eve, are more easily deceived than men. So if women by nature lack the discernment so key in teaching, then they should be prohibited from teaching anyone-especially the ones most easily misled, like other women and children. Yet many churches allow women to teach those poor souls! It's also a well-known secret that many women on the mission field pastor churches; how can we allow this terrible thing to persist?? The reason is that there aren't enough men to fill those positions. The lack of consistency in applying this so-called "scriptural principle" is appalling.
- If we're going to take a literal interpretation of this passage, we should look at 1 Tim 2.15: "women will be saved through childbearing." How about those who never married, or who are unable to conceive? I'm being a little sarcastic here, as many (like your PCA friend?) seem to pick and choose how they apply this passage. Do the men in his/her church lift hands when they pray (v. 8)? But, even if there is inconsistency, our own application of this passage needs to be consistent.
I think there's a grain of a valid point when it comes to denominations. I believe that some of those denominations who ordain women did so from a lens of "justice" rather than rigorous interpretation of scripture. Essentially, their lens goes something like this: Jesus' main teaching was about doing what is right and just. It is unjust to deny women expression of their God-given gifts and calling, therefore they must be allowed ordination.
It's the same lens that for many permits embracing homosexuality as a valid lifestyle and calling. That's why so many of those denominations have become more liberal in their practices. Your friend's understanding of cause and effect is a little off: He/she seems to say that because the denominations allowed a misreading of scripture on the women's issue, they opened the door for many other misreadings.
I believe that, in the case of women's ordination, they did the right thing for the wrong reason.
_______________________________________
I have great respect for this pastor, for many reasons, not the least of which is this very balanced response. Thank you for asking, Stan.
Honestwitness
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Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 266
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:20 am: | |
I'm curious. Forgive me if this is a silly question. At what age is a man considered a man? According to the "Women not being allowed to teach bible" set, does this mean never ever? Does it mean that every woman Sunday School teacher is doomed? Or do you go by rabbinical teaching and consider males 13 and up off limits?
This time I'm really not being sarcastic!! (I know, hard to believe) I'm just curious as I've never heard a conversation like this go so deep.
What are your thoughts?
Leigh Anne
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4892
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 2:07 pm: | |
Very interesting response from you pastor, Honestwitness. Thank you for sharing it.
Colleen |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 245
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:32 am: | |
"The reason Paul gives for his prohibition is that women, like Eve, are more easily deceived than men." Honestwitness
This is not true, and a faulty interpretation of what Paul wrote. Paul compared a woman (singular) with Eve, and we can see in Genesis why it was the woman (Eve) that got deceived and not the man (Adam). Simply Adam had more knowledge of God than Eve had, so knowledge kept Adam from being deceived.
See Women in Ministry - Silenced or Set Free? For the details.
"If we're going to take a literal interpretation of this passage, we should look at 1 Tim 2.15: "women will be saved through childbearing."" Honestwitness
This is also a faulty interpretation, the particular woman is saved as everybody else, by getting back to the truth, everybody including this woman is saved by Jesus, he entered the World through childbearing by the women, which lived from Eve to Mary.
Also the lifting of hands is interpreted incorrectly, basically I would recommend your pastor to have a look at the teaching, "Women in Ministries - Silenced or Set Free" To be enlightened about this letter of Paul.
In Christ! |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 246
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:39 am: | |
"Women not being allowed to teach bible" Grace_alone the passage does not say Women but "a woman" (singular).
I guess male children are men as well.
To me its clear, either this passage means that women can not teach men, regarding their age or circumstance or that they can teach men.
Please watch Women in Ministries - Silenced or Set Free? It does a fantastic job on its exegesis.
Jesus your love is greater than great! |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 167
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 1:14 pm: | |
MWH...please reread my message with the quoted portion from my pastor. He's on YOUR side of this issue.
Honestwitness |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 249
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 2:52 pm: | |
Yes I know, but he interprets the scriptures wrong as well like he states something like:
"But in the framing of the question about women, some things should be noted:
...
The reason Paul gives for his prohibition is that women, like Eve, are more easily deceived than men."
I must say that is not the reason Paul gives.
I'm not sure if this pastor is agreeing with Paul or not? I am sure though that he agrees that women can teach and lead men.
In christ
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