| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1604 Registered: 10-2004  |
Walk, you wrote: "I believe that the words of Scripture are God's Words." If you really believe that, then why did you say: "But what I find curious is that you appear to be afraid I am putting Jesus above Paul." Why are you putting the words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels above the words of Jesus in the epistles? Jeremy | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 85 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, once again, the problem is NOT with the words. The problem is our understanding of the words. Not the words themselves. The ultimate test of our interpretation is Jesus' life and actions and teachings. In other words, we test everything by ALL of Scripture but we are more likely to find the proper understanding in the words and deeds of Jesus than we are in the Book of Leviticus. WalkOnWater | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 282 Registered: 6-2006  |
WOW, this is starting to get funny! Why don't you just answer the questions and then go from there? If there's something that someone doesn't agree with you can talk about it then. Now put on something comfortable, grab a snack and a drink, and please answer Ramone. This isn't brain surgery. If you don't think you want to tackle the questions then just say so. Seriously, it really looks as if you're beating around the bush. Please don't reply to this post. However Ramone is being so patient. Please reply to him. Leigh Anne | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 256 Registered: 4-2006  |
Walk, why don't you just answer Ramone's questions? Reading your answers feels like talking to hardcore SDA's making large stories when asked if one is saved or not by keeping or not keeping the Sabbath. When its plain simple, yes or no. Also it seems like you are really not bible based in your answers, rather based in mans way of thinking. Are you really here because you are questioning the SDA organization? A question of mine, do you have a Guardian Angel who you are talking to? (Yes or No). | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2005  |
I'm sorry, but I really don't see a need to get off in the weeds about "sex and salvation" or how hard it is to understand Paul. Please, let's get on with Ramone's questions. Cy (Message edited by cy on November 05, 2006) | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2006 |
Before we continue, I have a question for all of you. What is 2 + 2 WalkOnWater | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2006  |
2+2 = 8-4 You could just agree to disagree if that is what you are after. If what I hear you saying is your interpretation is going to be different than Ramone's, then just say so. Alan | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2005 |
WoW, if you want to debate hermeneutics or exegesis with us, study up on these topics and then come talk to us, rather than making up your own philosophy of Biblical interpretation. Also, please stop dancing around whatever point(s) you are trying to make. We're not here to debate what the definition of "is" is, or to debate number theory and elementary mathematics. Cy | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 482 Registered: 10-2002  |
Walk, The trouble of debating the foundation is going to be more than it's worth. As I suggested before, I think we can address things as we go along with the questions. Blessings in Christ, Ramone | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4911 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hey, I certainly don't need to understand your foundation, Walk, before I can hear your answers! Please, just answer Ramone's questions! Colleen | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2006 |
THE TWO CONTRADICTORY POLLS OF TRUTH There are two truths about salvation. These two truths did not originate with Adventism or Ellen White These two truths come straight from the Bible. Every single Bible truth comes from an apparent contradiction. Let me give a few examples: Jesus says that if we want to LIVE we must DIE. That is a truth that comes from an apparent contradiction. Jesus said that if you want to be FIRST you must seek to be LAST. Another truth coming from an apparent contradiction. Jesus said the RICH are POOR and the POOR are RICH. Two more truths stemming from apparent contradictions. Jesus talked about SIGHTED people who are BLIND and BLIND people who can SEE. Two more truths coming from apparent contradictions. We are told that what we SEE is not real but what we don't SEE is real. More truth from contradiction. I could go on and on! I have found that as I read the Bible ALL SPIRITUAL TRUTH stems from apparent contradictions. God has designed SPIRITUAL TRUTH this way in order to make the FOOLISH WISE and make the WISE FOOLISH. (Another truth from apparent contradiction.) If ALL spiritual truth involves apparent contradictions then it would be logical to conclude that we would find an "apparent contradiction" in the truth of SALVATION. And indeed we do. With SALVATION we see two contradictory truths that come together to make the ONE GREAT TRUTH of SALVATION. What are those two truths? Phil. 2:12, 13 summarizes the two contradictions very well. As you know, Phil 2:12 starts out by saying, "continue to WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION with FEAR and TREMBLING," This text is the first leg of the apparent contradiction. It makes it look like salvation is entirely up to me. I must work at it! I must be fearful about it. I must be trembling about it. The problem is that many people take this first leg of the contradiction and turn it into their theology on salvation. This is exactly what many of you object to in Adventism. You feel strongly that Adventism turns salvation into ìeternal insecurityî. And in many cases, you would be right. So where have we gotten so far? Let's do a quick review. Phil. 2:12 is making it look like salvation is entirely up to mankind. Bt you and I know salvation is NOT up to us, if it was, no one would be saved. Right? So the first leg of the contradiction is, MY SALVATION IS UP TO ME. Now let's look at the second leg of the contradiction. The very next verse says, "for it is GOD WHO WORKS IN you to WILL and to ACT according to his good purpose." Phil. 2:13 This leg of truth makes it look like salvation is ENTIRELY UP TO GOD. It is "God who WORKS". It is God who "WILLS". It is God who "ACTS". It is God who puts within us "HIS GOOD PURPOSE". So letís summarize. Leg One: My salvation is entirely up to me. Leg Two: My salvation is entirely up to God. At this point, the two legs are totally contradictory. But if under the guidance of the Holy Spirit we put the two contradictory truths together we get a brand new complete truth. And that new super-truth is this: I cannot save myself. Only God can do that. But there are things I can do to put myself in a place where God can communicate with me. I can choose to seek him with all my heart. I can choose to take my prayer time everyday. I can choose to read His word everyday. I can choose to set my heart to find Him. I can choose to look at Godís promises instead of my problems. I can ask Him to forgive my sins and to cleanse me of all unrighteousness. I can choose to witness to others and tell what Jesus means to me. There is much I can do to cooperate with God. But NOTHING I DO saves me! If it could, Jesus would have died for nothing. Salvation is a cooperative effort of man and God. God saves and I cooperate with that salvation. Or as the Bible puts it, I am to WORK OUT MY OWN SALVATION with FEAR and TREMBLING, for it is GOD WHO WORKS IN ME to WILL and DO of His good pleasure. By combining the two contradictory legs we now have a complete truth. But here is the problem. Satan knows that truth always stands on two contradictory legs. He has adopted a very clever strategy. He gets people to line up with one leg or the other. For example Adventists have had a tendency to line up around the command to ìwork out your salvation with fear and tremblingî. They use books like James to show that works are important. They argue that the law still applies and that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the law of God. They shy away from the book of Galatians and find texts that support the importance of works in the Christianís life. Former Adventists, I am learning, grab hold of the other leg of truth and argue long and loud about how God saves us and how our works have nothing to do with salvation. They love Galatians and rarely mention James. They argue that since God does it all, I can say ìI am Savedî unlike those lily-livered Adventists who are afraid to utter such words. And what do we have? Both groups are right and both groups are wrong. Why? They are both right in the one leg they are defending. But they are both wrong because they leave out the other leg of truth. And Satan laughs, because he has managed to split the gospel and get the two groups to believe that MY GROUP IS RIGHT and YOUR GROUP IS WRONG, when in fact each group is only half right. Worse yet, by separating the two legs of truth, the power of the gospel is terribly diminished. And instead of using their God given power to preach the gospel they spend much energy in a tug of war trying to get the other group to see their error and come over to their side. This tug of war has been the sad history of the Christian church. In the mean time, people are dying who need to hear the full gospel in all its amazing, God given power. WalkOnWater | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 486 Registered: 10-2002 |
Walk, Thanks for explaining where you're coming from. After we discuss the questions, perhaps we can come back and discuss some "foundation" things? Until then, I'm eagerly awaiting your replies to the questions. Blessings in Christ's love, Ramone | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2006 |
I will respond to the Five Questions. However, my Oregon property deal is in a critical stage so I am not sure exactly when I will have that part ready. Thanks for your understanding. WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2006 |
One last thought, before I run. I ask you to carefully and prayerfully study what I have said about the two legs of truth. The reason is this. Unless we BOTH accept that every Bible truth is supported by two apparently contradictory truths which must be brought together to find the full truth, any discussion we have about the Old and New Covenant will be useless. Here is why. I will automatically be vering right and you will automatically be vering left. In other words, we will only get into a tug-of-war. You will be trying to convince me of your position and I will be trying to convince you of my position. Tug-of-Wars do not work. That is why I have refused to answer your questions so far. I am unwilling to participant in a tug-of-war. Please, prayerfully consider what I have said. WalkOnWater | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 610 Registered: 7-2004  |
There are many paradoxes found in Scripture. But that doesn't mean that your two legs of "truth" is one of those paradoxes, because I don't see Scripture backing that up. Instead I see your "logic" employed to turn it into a supposed Bible truth. I have prayerfully and carefully studied this, and it is a big part of my journey out of the SDA church. For years I was so confused as to how to balance everything out. I figured we had to "do" something, and I assumed as I had been taught that the 10 C's were eternal. Eventually I realized the hopelessness, because where is the line drawn? How much is "enough"? Ok, so as long as we do our best and have the right attitude and right beliefs. Who has ever tried their best? We all fail at that. And I won't even get into the right attitude or right beliefs part... (EGW even says we're accountable for what we could have known--yikes!) Then I discovered the Bible really does mean what it says, that believers have passed (past tense) from death to life, that we are not righteous by the Law or by anything we do. It's Jesus' righteousness in place ours, and nothing we do counts for anything. At the same time, the Holy Spirit gradually changes us over a lifetime purely as a benefit of being God's child. We have new desires and new strength to do those Godly desires. But even these things we "do" as Christians are not part of our salvation, but simply a means of being good witnesses for Jesus and being His hands and feet in this hurting world. I've also come to see that just as God does not provide physical healing for every believer this side of heaven, He also does not remove all our struggles with sin this side of heaven, and He doesn't even allow anyone to completely overcome sinning this side of heaven. But it doesn't matter, because all that counts has been taken care of already through Jesus on the Cross; even when we sin, we have already overcome sin because of Jesus' righteousness imputed to our account. Jesus has called me, cleansed me, and continues to change me. But it's all of Him! And I've learned the 10 C's are not eternal, the entire Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant, and they are not the same thing. (2 Corinthians 3, Galatians 4 for starters) And by the way, Paul's writings have been rather simple to understand now that the New Covenant concept is correctly in place. And I've not seen any Christian outside the SDA church have trouble with his writings. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 292 Registered: 6-2006 |
I agree with you Raven. The Bible isn't filled with contradictions, and the Bible doesn't contradict itself. The only thing that the Bible contradicts is Ellen G White's writings. (Which should be a blaring red light) | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 322 Registered: 11-2004 |
While I do not agree with you about the two legs of truth, I would still like to hear how an Adventist answers Ramone's questions. I do believe the Bible is inspired, not just the thoughts and ideas, but the actual words. I do get the notion that the stalling and the necessity of laying a foundation for your answers that you do not take Paul's words at face value. It also makes me wonder if an Adventist can answer those questions from the Bible alone. I don't expect your answers to be the same as mine and I doubt that is what others are expecting too. I have never heard an Adventist explain the passages in the epistles regarding the new covenant and I am curious as to what you think they are talking about. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4918 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen to Raven, Leigh Anne, and U2bsda! Walk, let's just have your answers. As I said earlier, if people do not believe the Bible is their only foundation, that it is inerrant and that we don't have to juggle its words to arrive at truth, they will be basing all their arguments on their own logic instead of Biblical truth. Actually, your "two legs" are your own logic. The Bible does not teach two apparently contradictory means of salvation. Let's hear your answers! We don't have to agree to your foundational arguments in order to hear your answers. Colleen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 103 Registered: 8-2006 |
Amen, Raven! I would like to hear your answers as well. It is a courteous response just as your questions were answered by others here without them insisting that you agree to THEIR foundational views. That "tug of war" was not a problem before. I believe the truth of the matter is in your response "I have refused to answer your questions so far". A week ago or more you said you were on question number 3. Some people would have you believe this line of "logic". Bob is 6 ft tall. Bob is a man. Therefore all 6ft tall men are named Bob. This is what is known as flawed logic. In a way, the same sort of logic that led to many of the distinctive SDA doctrines, none of which can truly be supported in Scripture. To say that all truths in scripture are revealed in contradictory terms is to believe the bible is contradictory. I find nothing in James that contradicts Galatians, when understood in the light of the New Covenant, as Raven has pointed out. I don't believe you ever WILL answer Ramone's questions. That doesn't stop me from praying for you, though, that the veil will be lifted. Susan | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 378 Registered: 7-2005  |
Thos two legs remembers me about a book I had read long ago, "Adventism in Conflict", by Leroy Moore. Basically the premise of the book is that the actual division existing in the adventist church, and the existence of former adventists is because people are believing only a pole of truth, which has a paradoxical nature. They are not willing to see the opposite pole, only one pole. The book is still online in PDF form and the thesis is that Ellen White incorporated both poles of truth in her books. What it looks as a contradiction, is just a paradoxical truth. Leroy Moore is clearly adventist in his approach. He's defending adventism, Ellen White, he's approaching the subject with great confidence that the others are simply deluded, not mature enough to handle solid food. In his opinion only those who have developed a character are able to accept the paradoxical nature of truth. But certainly, former adventists are entirely wrong, because by rejecting one pole of truth they destroyed the truth. With this book in mind, I'm really curious what information WOW will share with us in the future. |
