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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2007 - 9:51 pm: |     |
Ramone,
Yes it is a good question and one that I would like to address and have been thinking of that very thing, but, in order to struggle with that question it has to be dealt with on a more personal level and leave the corporate level of a cult entity.
Dealing with the answer of whether a corporate level entity is a cult is so much easier than dealing with the people on a one to one level and is not the same because then you have to ask the question"without which not" in other words, what beliefs are required to take the name of "Christian" for example we would say that a person cannot be an atheist and be a Christian. The Bible plainly states that in order for one to come to God he must believe that he "is".
I just don't believe we can say an individual, although mixed into a cult, particularly raised in a cult, cannot be a Christian, to me that would be insanity, to say there are no Christians in the Adventist church would be equally erroneous and we take a chance on becoming an accuser of the brethren ourselves and I refuse to fall into that trap.
To say that Adventism corporately is a cult is very easy to identify, they just fail one test right after another, but just as you give example of Christians who still try to hang on to the Buddhist alter can we declare them not Christian?
To deal with Christianity on a personal level, we must leave the corporate level of the cult and deal with Adventism on another plain which will induce us to prayer and supplication for the individual, we don't pray for the spirit behind Adventism, it deserves nothing, no quarter, it is a personal battle for the souls of men we need to wage, but we need to be willing to identify the enemy of the Adventist soul.
If one is going to wage war he needs to understand the terrain and know the enemy's tactics and know how to take the high ground, I am not convinced that theological debate with them is always the high ground and mostly I think it is rocky ground with too many impediments too suit me and rushing into battle carrying nothing but debate is perhaps foolish and may very well drive him into a cave of proof texting and outright defensiveness and it may leave us in need of repentance more than them if we are not careful.
We just have to ask God for wisdom and wait till he gives it to us I guess, personally I think getting into long debates with them might end up with us shooting blanks at times.
So yes, it is a good question Ramone and I think we need to struggle with it and understand it so that we might be know and be aware of our surrounding and be good an knowledgeable warriors, if we don’t we may very well end up with the low ground and lose many battles and waste time fighting those useless battles.
We can learn a lot by watching Jesus through the Gospels, he always took the high ground, I can’t think of a time he ended up on the defensive.
Personally I am afraid I will mess up to the point where Jesus has to send me back to the rear to sit with the gear and I don’t want that.
River
P.S. Dianna, no one is suggesting that anyone confront Adventist accusing them of belonging to a cult, or confronting them with anything for that matter. You are correct in not doing that. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1606
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2007 - 10:54 pm: | |
My ex one time told me that he knew some people considered adventism a cult, but if that's what a cult was, he was going to be part of a cult. The label meant nothing to him because he was so convinced they were 'right' and the 'true' church. To me, and I am sure this is an over-simplification, but if someone is offended by the label, I wonder if they're not having their own doubts they can't squelch and the 'insult' is merely just exposing their own doubts??? Just makes me wonder.... As has been said above, JWs and LDSs are called cults quite frequently....I don't really see much mass exodus.
I'd rather speak truth to those who might be tempted to join them than worry about trying to convince anyone to leave. Truth should not be 'sugar-coated' to avoid upsetting some people. My pastor speaks it plain, loud and clear, and yes, sometimes offensive to the politically correct type. Wouldn't have it any other way. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6475
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 1:03 am: | |
River, you are absolutely correct. We must know the true nature of the enemy of Adventists' souls in order to properly address it. and Spokenfor, you said that so well: "Adventists are some of the most sincere and devoted people I know and they are held prisoner by something they don't even know exists."
The fact that the public face of Adventism varies from place to place is irrelevant to the true nature of the underlying SDA loyalty. Again, as River so well explained, calling Adventism a cult does not mean that individuals are not Christians. The church is confusion—and confusion is always a mark of evil. It is never a sign of God's Spirit and presence.
We have to KNOW in order to respond in a way that is ultimately helpful. Adventists don't know they are bound by a spiritual power. The most "Spirit-led" ones are bound by the same spirit of deception. That doesn't mean they're not saved—but it means that they are living in a great deal of dissonance and spiritual bondage.
As our pastor said in the class Richard took last year: if there is ever doubt about a person's salvation, it is always better to err on the side of assuming they are NOT saved than to assume they ARE saved and miss the opportunity to call them to repentance if they need it.
Colleen |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 951
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 5:52 am: | |
Hi River,
Very true.
I was thinking of this today after I posted (and thankfully I deleted the meandering latter half of my post before doing so and left it hanging!)...
Speaking of it on an organizational level really clears things up. The difficulty comes when lumping people together and generalizing people, and that's where it does get sticky. But no mistake should be made about the system of beliefs / the organization, which rest upon the anti-gospel foundation.
Terms, terms, terms.
As I said earlier, there are a lot of cults here in Japan which have nothing to do with even attempting to look Christian. As odd as it sounds (and as offensive as it sounds), the term "Christian-cult" is best suited to each of the trio of SDA/LDS/JW.
But anyway, all that said, for our purposes here in understanding: It is a cult. |
Spokenfor
Registered user
Username: Spokenfor
Post Number: 76
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 6:40 am: | |
To clarify what I said in an above post, I was referring to the organization itself. The people are simply trapped in it's deceit. It is the organization that is a cult. I don't go around telling my sda friends and family that they are in a cult becaues they would not believe me, and it would make them more defensive. But from my vantage point it's hard to see it as anything less than a dangerously slick cult and I have no problem warning anyone and everyone on the outside that might come in contact with it to beware. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 105
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 7:18 am: | |
Question: In that multi-generational historical Adventists have found their way out, many at great personal sacrifice while many others don’t and won’t, do you think that those who don’t are predisposed to a gospel plus theology? That the same people would gravitate toward an extremist position regardless of denominational affiliation? The thought came to mind through association with a couple who left the Baptist church to become Adventists and really jumped on the legalistic bandwagon with gusto, rejecting a Christ centered gospel for gospel plus extremism.
JONVIL |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 8:17 am: | |
Jonvil,
For quite some time I have believed there is a genetic component to this. Not in all cases, mind you, but genetics CAN come into play. What would make it very difficult is for one genetically comprimised person to make progeny with another like individual, producing babies that are prone to this.
Just like some people are prone to alcoholism. Others can handle alcohol, some cannot. Jesus can save either kind.
Not sure if bad tempers are inherited or learned, but I would not bet the farm that there is NO genetic component! I believe everthing can be bred for or against.
If you want to start a cult, it is the first adult generation that will be the hardest part. After babies are born and reared in cultism, it will flow fairly smoothly. Just make sure there is a mechanism for recruiting enough new members to make up for the losses of those exiting. |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 401
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 8:56 am: | |
I agree without hesitation that the system of "Adventism" is indeed a cult, under a power that is dark and elemental. As Melissa said, I'll call them what they are to someone who is curious or considering studying, joining, or who considers them just another Christian denomination.
However, to tell Adventists who are in the church that they are in a cult, in my experience, has done no good, and has even shut their hearts and minds to anything else I've said afterwards. Even to those who claim they have nothing to do with EGW, when faced with the statement that she is a false prophet, will come to her defense. It's wacky, to be sure, but just another confirmation that Adventists are held by a spiritual power that they themselves don't understand or recognize.
Even those SDA's who have given up some of the things they once agreed to in the baptismal vows, like wine, pork away from home as was mentioned in another thread, still cling to Adventism, if in no other way, culturally. I often think of the experiences of so many people who leave Adventism. The ones who left (like me in the beginning) who didn't realize the rottenness of the foundation; when they want to be in relationship with God again, return to the Adventist church. I firmly believe that if you have once been in the grip of the spirit that is behind Adventism, it takes a miracle to be free. That miracle is the Holy Spirit opening your heart to the TRUTH about Adventism. Nothing else will do it. Even my son, when I talked with him about my leaving Adventism, made the comment that the "Sabbath is still the day to worship on". And he has only visited the SDA church a couple of times in the last 10 years!
To recap my ramblings: Adventism is indeed a cult, and those who are in it are caught up in a cult, but they can be true Christians who are held in bondage. When they realize the nature of Adventism, they will do one of two things: they will leave and follow Jesus, or they will stay. I make no assumptions as to the ones who stay, but I believe the ones who follow Jesus where He leads are truly His sheep.
To the ones who we know and love who are in bondage to Adventism-do we tell them they are in a cult? Well, look at it this way...do we always tell the enemy our battle plan? (I'm not speaking of humans here, but of the spiritual powers that are in high places here in the world that we battle against). No, but we fight them with the whole armor of God. Prayer being one of those. Pray for those we know and love and tell them of the freedom that we have in Christ. His sheep know Him and hear His voice, and follow Him. May they hear His voice through us!
Susan |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1608
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 10:37 am: | |
Just to give a different/but similar slant to what Susan said about his sheep, I had a former boss who was raised Mormon, but was a genuine Christian. He said he and his wife had been sitting in their mormon church one day listening to what they always listened to and just looked at each other and asked...what are we doing here? They left the mormon religion and never looked back. They took a lot of heat from family, but they were genuine Christians somehow in that environment. Now they are active in an evangelical church, his small group had just finished 'experiencing God' (dates this conversation) and I had just started it so had the workbook at work (how the conversation got started). He didn't go into great details about leaving. He did say, however, that people challenging his church tended to make him more defensive and probably dug him in a bit more. When it was time for him to go, he and his wife knew it in unity and no outside person influenced them. That story always fascinated me because God didn't need 'us' to convince them. In reality, I don't think I've ever heard anyone on this forum say someone convinced them about the errors of adventism. I know I've influenced people from becoming adventist and looking more critically at their teachings, but I've never seen anyone leave and certainly not because of anything I've said. |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 502
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 10:50 am: | |
Diana, I totally agree with you. Adventism is not exactly a cult but has "cult-like" beliefs.
I think you are right on the nose in your asessment of it.
However, I think it can be more dangerous than some of the cults because there is just enough truth mixed in with Adventism that it can deceive people who are not well grounded in scripture. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 11:02 am: | |
Susan,
To my way of thinking you make a great analysis, top to bottom.
As Ramone so aptly stated, the difficulty's come when we start lumping people together.
Friends, I just don't believe we can do that, to my mind we MUST at all times separate out the corporate entity from individual entity of men.
The reason I say that is if we fail to do that I think we take the risk of offending those who we would have come to the knowledge of who Christ is to us.
In other words if we cannot separate the two in our mind I am afraid we will end up resenting the people as well as resenting the spirit that controls the corporate entity.
This resulting resentment will come through to the people whom we are trying to help, be it family or friends. People can sense any resentment we may feel, it just has a way of showing and so we must always love in truth.
It seems to me the only way we can do that is to lay aside (push out of the way) the corporate entity that is Adventism.
In other words identify the real enemy, then push him out of the way and go to the people in the love of Christ.
We have a real enemy but through the love of Christ we can steam roll him.
Am I making myself clear friends?
This is the reason why I keep harping on this, identify the thing then push him out of the way, he’s dog meat anyhow, so when he comes to our door say “Just a minute and Jesus will get that”.
I can’t do anything with my own perfection, but through the Holy Spirit that lives within me I can put ten thousand to flight.
All I am really trying to do is clarify and identify and move on and whether this enemy comes at us as we seek for new churches, seek for the knowledge of Christ for husbands and wives, deal with Adventist mothers and fathers and uncles and cousins, begin to realize who we are in Christ and go in the power if Christ, identify the enemy then steam roll his sorry hide.
River |
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