| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6451 Registered: 12-2003  |
I just received an email from an author from a past issue of Proclamation!. It contained a link to www.lamblion.com, the website for Lamb & Lion Ministries that produces the bi-monthly newlsetter, Lamplighter. At this link: http://www.lamblion.com/pdf/2006/Lamplighter-042006.pdf is the July/August, 2006 newsletter which contains an article researching Adventism and re-opening the question of whether or not it is a cult. Dr. David Reagan, the editor, does a thorough investigation into the history and current doctrinal statements of Adventism. He says, "To me, a cult is a religious group that masquerades as being Christian. It employs Christian terms, quotes the Bible, and uses Christian symbols. But it is not a true expression of the Christian faith because it teaches a false Jesus or a false Gospel or both." He quotes Walter Martin on the John Ankerberg television show in January, 1985, shortly before he died: "I fear that if they continue to progress at this rate, then the classification of a cult can't possibly miss being reapplied to Seventh-day Advenitsts because once you have an interpreter of Scripture, a final court of appeal that tells you what Scripture means—as soon as you judge Scripture by that, as soon as you have someone who has made doctrinal errors inthe past, even on the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the atonement and on other things, and that person is raised to that position of authority, you have polarization around that person." Then Reagan explores six defining areas where cults fail: 1. The identity of Jesus 2. The nature of the Gospel 3. The type of leadership (including the founding leaders) 4. The source of authority 5. Attitude toward others 6.The type of governance Reagan concludes that SDAs fail five of the above, and the sixth one (the identity of Jesus) is officially OK but upon closer reflection, even that one has serious problems. I share below Reagan's concluding paragraphs: "So, where does this lead us? Is the SDA a cult of not? I have proposed six tests. The SDA failed all but one of them—the one concerning the identity of Jesus. And there are serious questions about that one. "I am convinced that Walter Martin declassified the SDA as a cult in 1965 because he became convinced that they had an orthodox view of Jesus. To him, that was the acid test. I would agree that it is the most important one, but the group's perverted concept of the Gospel must be ranked as almost equal in importance because of Paul's warning in Galatians 1:8-9. "I therefore must conclude that the SDA should be considered a cult until they are willing to repudiate the 'Investigative Judgment' doctrine and are willing to clearly state that the Bible, and not the writings of Ellen G. White, is their final authority in all matters. "After I concluded this essay, I decided to contact Dr. Ron Carlson, the man who is considered to be Christendom's foremost expert on the cults today. I asked him for a statement about the SDA, and this is what he wrote in response: " 'As you may know, Walter Martin was my mentor and dear friend for 20 years and spoke at my ordination. I was to have lunch with him the day he died in 1989. 'Walter had a real influence on many of the SDA leaders in the 70's and early 80's seeking to move them to a Biblical position. Many were, and there was hope for the SDA Church. 'What has happened in the last 20 years is that nearly 50% of the SDA pastors and leaders who were seeking to move it to an evangelical postition have all been "kicked" out or left the SDA. The people who are now in control have moved the organization back to following the teachings of Ellen G. White and denying some basic doctrines of Biblical Christianity. In fact, their official position is that if you do not worship on Saturday you are not a Christian and will not go to Heaven. Sunday worship is the mark of the beast. They are clearly today a false Cult'." I do remember having this newsletter pointed out to me some months ago, I can't remember by whom, but for some reason tonight this grabbed my attenion in a more forceful way, and I decided I needed to share it here! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1189 Registered: 4-2000  |
Colleen, Thanks for the link. I have been getting this magazine in the mail after they featured Pastor Mark Martin and his church about a year ago. Their earlier issue featured some factual and interesting details about the Masonic Lodge. Although I disagree with alot of Reagan's theological views, they publish some well-researched articles as well. It is encouraging to see religious leaders taking a public stand against the deception of Adventism. May their tribe increase! BTW, tell Richard the new website design is outstanding. God has certainly blessed him in website design talent. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 482 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have read that article in Lamplighter and found it very informative. Dennis, I also disagree with a lot of David Reagan's theological views, but yes they do publish some excellent articles. By the way, Dennis, I loved your article on the LAM website about the colporteur industry. By the way, Dennis,did you get the e-mail I sent you a few days ago about that e-mail from an Adventist friend with that had some stuff in it that kinda gave me the heebeejeebees?? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 101 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen, I'm puzzled as to one statement that Reagan made here: "...and are willing to clearly state that the Bible, and not the writings of Ellen G. White, is their final authority in all matters." Back when I was an Adventist, I thought the Bible and Ellen White agreed with, and complimented each other. I thought that Ellen White's writings were "the lesser light pointing to the greater light," (though I also regarded both her writings and the Bible to be equally inspired and I thought Ellen White explained the Bible as well.) When I found to my great astonishment that Ellen White very clearly CONTRADICTED the Bible, then I stopped believing in her writings. (After that, I studied further and found that the whole church was based on false doctrine!) If the Adventist church were to start putting her writings and interpretations ABOVE the Bible, Seventh-day Adventists would become really hard to reach. It would be like trying to reach Mormons who put Joseph Smith's writings above the Bible. Dianne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1208 Registered: 9-2006  |
Dianne While the Adventist church “say” they put the Bible above Ellen’s writings, they say one thing and do another, for in practice they put her writings above the Bible. The Adventist church “is” hard to reach. They even put the Adventist church above the Bible. The Adventist church is confusion at it very worst. They try so hard to mimic Evangelical churches that you can’t tell which side their mouth they are talking from, not even another Adventist can pin them down. Even in the face of their own abandoning them, they stubbornly cling to a false church and will not even examine the findings of some of their own ministers who abandon the teachings of E.G.W. and the IJ and myriad other practices. Now this is only the view of an outsider, but it is what it looks like to me. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6455 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, you are absolutely correct. Dianne, in words only do Adventists put the Bible above Ellen White. In his interveiw with William Johnsson, editor of the Review, in 1984, Walter Martin (quoted in the article linked above) was trying to pin Johnsson down regarding Adventism's interpretation of the Bible vs. overlaying Ellen's interpretation onto teachings of the atonement. etc. In actual fact, they claim the Bible is their highest authority. In practice, however, they teach things as Ellen instructed. Then they superimpose proof-texts onto those Ellen-shaped teachings and say that all their beliefs come from the Bible. They even say that they can find all their doctrines in the Bible with no help from Ellen. In reality, however, the only way they can find all those doctrines in the Bible is to follow a line of proof-text reasoning with the texts taken out-of-context. In truth, Ellen is their highest authority, because the Bible, which they claim as their authority, does not teach, in context, the things they espouse. Without Ellen, they would not have their unique Adventist theology. Period. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1209 Registered: 9-2006 |
This is what confuses some liberal Evangelicals who would like to give them the benefit of the doubt and go ahead and give them a pass, so would I, I would like nothing better than to have given them a pass, I gave the benefit of myself being proved wrong, not them, it just don't work, my approach from the start was to be fair, I took years of study and hard work to bore into Adventism from the outside of the tree, while the tree looks well from the outside it is rotten to the core on the inside, it is a monster that tries to disguise itself in Christianity, if one face doesn't work it happily oblige you with another. It is a monster that rolls over its own and smashes them like they were so much garbage It is the most confounding thing I have ever experienced, it is demonic and diabolic with no clear lines of demarcation, most religions, even the cults have some clear lines of demarcation, but not this one. This one is the cult of cults; it leaves one with no clear line of attack and no clear way to speak to them. There is just to many sides of this thing to hold in my mind at one time. Anybody sees it different then I surely wish you good luck and God speed. Do I sound frustrated? You better believe I am. River | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2007 |
The more I look into adventism, the more clear it is to me how false it is. God truly is guiding us to every light of truth in our lives. Look at us, we're all a testimony of the miracle of once being blinded by lies into knowing the truth. I just can't believe I was part of a cult all along and wasn't aware of it at all. Amen and Praise the Lord. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 487 Registered: 5-2007 |
Adventism just might be the most dangerous of all the "cults". Other cults like the Mormons and JWs can be seen as false by inspection. Adventism is much more subtile, not to mention the "false advertising" done by Prophecy Seminars, etc. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 508 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, 1. If they put the Bible above Ellen White's writings, they wouldn't need the Clear Word Bible, would they? 2. I have a copy of the official "Adult Sabbath School Bible Study Guide" for July, August and September 2006. The title is "The Gospel, 1844, and Judgment". The inside of the front cover contains a full page add with a bold title that says, "Let Ellen G. White help you study!" Below the text states "Don't miss out! Start getting more from your daily Bible Study with E. G. White Notes today. Available at your Adventist Book Center". The obvious inference is that Adventists who study the Bible without Ellen White's help are handicapped. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hey Colleen thank you so much for that article. It's an eye opening read. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thanks River and Colleen; I have to agree with you. Looking back at what I believed, I can see very clearly that the whole SDA church is based on Ellen White and the Bible not-so-subtly twisted to fit. An Adventist has a few "proof" texts taken that they recite to "prove" that what they believe is true. The trouble is, if a person doesn't know their Bible real well - including the Adventist him/herself; they will be decieved. (I was.) It's just that at the time, while I was an Adventist, my perception was that the Bible and Ellen White agreed. I think most Adventists believe that way and it seems to me that a good approach would be to show how Ellen White contradicts the Bible. That's what got me out of the SDA church. After I left that church I remarked dryly to a friend how that a person could make the Bible and Ellen White fit, if they twisted the Bible real hard to fit her writings and talked real loud to cover the sound of breaking passages  Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2007 |
Of all the cults, the SDA church is the most subtle and the most apparently "Christian." Other cults are obvious in their error. Even the pastor of the church I've been going to, when he was preaching on 2 Corinthians 11; when he was talking about the apostle Paul talking about "another Jesus" and "a different gospel" in verse 4; mentioned the Mormon church and I think he also mentioned the Jehovah's Witness church, but he didn't mention the Adventist church. I don't think most Christians have a clue about Seventh-day Adventists. Back when I was an Adventist, I thought it was a good thing that the SDA church hid it's identity when they gave those Revelation seminars. I figured that if people knew the name of the church, they'd atomatically think "cult" and then they wouldn't learn the "truth." Whenever a preacher would quote from Ellen White from the pulpit, I'd get alarmed, thinking: "what if a non-Adventist is here and gets turned off that we have a prophet?!" I would be thinking that they should be introduced to that concept slowly. Now I think it's terrible that they hide their identity, because now I know it's a cult! (Even the Adventist Book Center downtown has "ABC Christian Book Store" over it's door.) Dianne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4070 Registered: 3-2004  |
I will not call the SDA church a "cult". I will say it has cult like beliefs. The longer I am away from it, the more I see all the error it taught and that I did not know or I forgot it. Dianne, like you, I did not like to hear EGW quoted in a sermon because there might be a non SDA in the audience and they would not get the truth from the Bible. I did not realize they hid their identity from the public with the prophecy seminars, etc, as I quite attending regularly a long time ago. I am just so thankful, God was gently taking me out of this mix. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 491 Registered: 5-2007 |
Actually Diana that's probaly more how I see the SDA church. It's not really a "cult" but it has cultish tendencies. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1211 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Dianna and Reb, Thats my demarcation line, I sharply disagree with you, I love you but I disagree with you, I don't disrespect you in the least but I disagree with you, you will find many others who will agree with you but I can't although it has been attractive to me to look at it that way in the past because I care for the people in it. In fact I would love to look at it that way so I could go back to being a regular old Evangelical, I would be out of here and you would hear me no more, Just think of the relaxation that would afford this forum, old 100 grit river gone for good. I could just go back to attending my little church and thinking everything is alright in Denver. Is everything well in Denver Steve? Do you feel everything is o.k. with your family? Born again, just a little cultish, nutten to worry about? Well now, I guess now I'm getting into the 60 grit stuff and that rougher grit may be uncalled for. Here, let me try to glue that hide back on Dianna, there now, does that feel better? You still got all your hide there Reb? Love ya. 100 grit River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4073 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, what you said did not bother me one bit. You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine. No offense taken. Diana | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 55 Registered: 6-2007 |
It's a cult. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2007 |
If it walks like a cult, and quacks like a cult... it is probably a cult. Laurie | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2005 |
I think it is interesting to see the various ways the phrase "SDA Church" can be used. It reminds me of cultural phrases used here in Salt Lake City, Utah. Here the term most frequently used is "The Church", and everyone knows that depending on the context it refers to some application of the indigenious religion of the area -- "The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints". That is the official name for "The Church". Sometimes it refers to the organizational leadership and the official doctrines that they espouse, and sometimes it refers to "church members". If you visit "The Church"-owned KSL TV station's web site at http://www.ksl.com/ you will find comments for many of the articles that reflect various nuances to the term "The Church". One of the more interesting ones that reflects the divide between "the faithful" and the Gentiles is http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=1538236 with 383 comments! As you will notice, a lot of it consists of emotional over-reaction. I wonder if sometimes when references are made to the "SDA Church" being a cult if it isn't a little like the young girl who told her daddy she wanted the bath water "warmer". Her father stuck his hand in and said, "Honey, its already pretty hot!" What she meant was that she wanted it closer to the temperature that she identified with being "warm". The definition of a cult includes specific characteristics which are usually identified with beliefs rather than people. Those people who take upon themselves the responsibility for "enforcing" those beliefs, either physically or psychologically, would seem to me to be "accessories to the fact". That would create at least two parties which might reasonably be referred to as the "SDA Church" -- the organizational hierarchy, and the members. I see characteristics that I would identify with a cult in the first application. I feel it would do injury to, and mis-represent the second group to just lump them all together and call them a "cult". There are within the second group those that represent where many of us were not so long ago. Were we not sincerely following God as best we knew how? I think it fair to say that we must be part of "God's elect", otherwise He would not have called us out of Adventism, would He? Everything we say needs to be said in a spirit of love. While the health of these forums depends on a free and healthy exchange of opinions, I know one of my own personal weaknesses is to too quickly put labels on things without clearly defining what I actually mean. My wife is much better than I am at clarifying what she is trying to say. I like what Diana and others have said. I think that if we are careful to clearly identify what we are applying labels to we will find ourselves in agreement on most subjects. In Christian love, Gilbert |
