| Author |
Message |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 3:36 pm: |     |
Oh my goodness! Do they have a clue that Jesus ate meat? Isaac was OLD! |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 9:50 am: | |
I did a search of her writings at her online website, but did not find any results specifically. I searched for meat and blind or meat and blindness. This is as close as I could see, but it's a wide umbrella:
"(1896) E. from U.T. 4
672. I have felt urged by the Spirit of God to set before several the fact that their suffering and ill health was caused by a disregard of the light given them upon health reform. I have shown them that their meat diet, which was supposed to be essential, was not necessary, and that, as they were composed of what they ate, brain, bone, and muscle were in an unwholesome condition, because they lived on the flesh of dead animals; that their blood was being corrupted by this improper diet; that the flesh which they ate was diseased, and their entire system was becoming gross and corrupted. {CD 387.2}"
"Ill-health in a variety of forms, if effect could be traced to the cause, would reveal the sure result of flesh eating. The disuse of meat with healthful dishes nicely prepared to take the place of flesh-meats, would place a large number of the sick and suffering ones in a fair way of recovering their health without the use of drugs. {15MR 277.2}"
"MS 3, 1897 675. The meat diet is the serious question. Shall human beings live on the flesh of dead animals? The answer, from the light that God has given is, No, decidedly No. Health reform institutions should educate on this question. Physicians who claim to understand the human organism ought not to encourage their patients to subsist on the flesh of dead animals. They should point out the increase of disease in the animal kingdom. The testimony of examiners is that very few animals are free from disease, and that the practice of eating largely of meat is contracting diseases of all kinds,-- cancers, tumors, scrofula, tuberculosis, and numbers of other like affections. {CD 388.3}"
I read through Counsels of Health on meat and a couple of other on-line chapters related to meat. I could not find any specific references attaching meat-eating to blindness. Just those generic claims above. But there are a lot of writings... |
Madelia (Madelia)
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 11:01 am: | |
Thanks Melissa |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 2:04 pm: | |
My mom got her annual X-Mas greeting card from the Doug Batchler family wishing her a happy holiday season, a great next year and thanking her for her loyal financial support during this past year. In the card is a note encouraging that the monatary gifts keep coming so that the day of Jesus's return "can be hastened". Colleen, do you want me to photocopy this goofy card sand send a copy of it to you? You all out there don't go along with that SDA line that "we" can hasten the coming of Jesus, do you? Because, I ALWAYS thought that was about the stupidest thing the SDA church teaches. |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 2:34 pm: | |
The Bible says only the Father has set dates (seasons) and times by his own authority (NIV) or his own power (KJV) (acts 1:7). ...I tend to think that means he has a day and hour picked by his own authority or his own power, not dependent upon us. |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 2:47 pm: | |
I have a question of my own on a potentially-absurd issue. Is there something against applause or clappling in the SDA church? B has come to several plays at my church and sits there absolutely motionless when the rest of the crowd claps for things. I used to think it was just him until some of his friends went with us to a baptist church Christmas production and they didn't want to stand on the Hallelujah chorus (B explained it was just a man-made tradition - so I presumed all man made traditions are considered wrong???). Nor did they clap either. Yesterday was our children's play and my son had a role ... and he didn't even clap at the end of his song or scene. But it's okay to carry on and hoot and holler at a Chiefs game.... (until they lose to Denver)?? I'm still trying to figure out what is B and what is his theology. Sorry if these questions are dumb. |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 5:10 pm: | |
Melissa,
I'm lol. Yes, there is something about clapping--or at least there used to be. Traditionally, SDA churches have been very conservative. So things like clapping or verbal responses (amens) were taboo. Black churches have typically been less uptight about that than White churches. In recent years, clapping has become much more common in all churches. However, it is still a bone of contention for many. The historic Adventists (which it sounds like B might be), still refuse to do so, and will sit stoiclly (sp) while others do it. It has to do (in their mind) with being reverent in the sanctuary.
Personally, I do think there is a proper time and place for applause; however I am uncomfortable with it when it becomes a form of exalting the performer in a worship setting. I used to sing in a choir (long story), and I can tell you that I would often judge how well we performed by the presence or lack of applause. For me, this was the wrong focus. Applause can reinforce those self-centered ideas.
Having said that, we applaud frequently (and enthustiastically) at the church that now I attend. In fact, I would compare it to the cheering at a Steeler game (although there hasn't been too much of that this year). However, we are applauding God's goodness, and not the performance itself. Its a big difference.
Its amazing when I look back at the things God has delivered me from. Talk about majoring in minors, that was me.
In His Grace
Doug |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 7:29 am: | |
Yes Melissa, as Doug said, clapping has historically been a big no-no in SDA churches. I came from a small town historic SDA church in Iowa. I was completely shocked the first time I heard clapping after special music at the more progressive College View SDA Church in Lincoln, NE. I thought I was really experiencing apostacy in the big city. I used to sit with my arms crossed when others clapped, making a show of defying such an irreverent and worldly practice. I felt *very* superior to all the "psuedo-Adventists" around me that were clapping.
Interestingly enough, although many SDAs now will clap after an inspiring organ piece during the service, I still see many that absolutely refuse to clap along during praise. More contemporary msuic is often performed at CVC now, but the leaders have little or no luck inspiring any real participation during the music. I've even been to contemporary concerts at CVC like Point of Grace and Michelle Tumes and have seen even these well known recording artist fail to get the SDAs in the crowd to participate.
Echoing Doug's thoughts above, it seems to me that between the two forms of clapping, clapping to God while singing His prasies would seem more honoring than clapping for a performer at the end of their performance. |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 7:57 am: | |
well, it's a little hard to explain to a child why B will clap and scream enthusiastically for a job well done on the football field, but the hundreds of hours he has devoted to his little church play aren't "worthy" of such appreciation. WHERE did we get the idea that it's wrong to express appreciation for anyone that has taken their time and used their talents to honor God? It doesn't take away from God to acknowledge the vessle he is using as well. Isn't that part of encouraging one another? I know there are always those who get arrogant by such praise, but why do we deny some or most because of the misuse of a few?? To me, it's just saying thank you.
It is truly like peeling an onion. Once I think I understand, another layer is revealed. Thanks for the info. |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:46 am: | |
Melissa,
My experience is that the "no-clapping" rule does not usually apply to children. As Chris said, "B" may have instead been trying to make a statement--especially if he was in a non-adventist environment.
As far as your comment about what you tell the child, I think it is a great opportunity to start teaching him that when he is "offering his time and talents for God," that acknowledgement from others is secondary and should not be his focus.
At my church, we have a wonderful praise team. At the conclusion of a song, they will often initiate a round of applause, but it is never for the performance. It is always a response to the words that we just sang. They make a concerted effort to be as invisible as possible.
I was a elder in the SDA church I attended and often had the opportunity to speak. A disturbing trend began to develop during the last couple of years that I was there. People would applaud after a sermon--especially if it was someone other than the pastor speaking. I can tell you that that made me very uncomfortable. They were not applauding the message, but the messenger or the effort.
I don't want to say that people-focused applause should never occur. I think there are certainly appropriate times for it. However, I don't think we should equate what someone does when they score a touchdown on the football field with what they do as a form of worship to the creator of the universe. The two are distinctly separate and one hsould not get in the way of the other.
Just my humble opinion. |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 9:28 am: | |
Once again Melissa we have these crazy things we believed and were taught but who knows the true why of it. There are still elders who get in front of those small churches and tell them it is a sin to clap. At the larger churches I noticed it was ok but I still did not feel right doing it. Praise God he has broguht us out of all that mess. These is no answer for you B and he could not tell you either. Chris your posts make me laugh not that they are funny its just I used to feel tha same way I was so much more advanced in my walk with the Lord then others can you imagine because I did not clap wow. Now I feel like I know nothing about anything. I do know that I can be sure of my salvation though unlike before. Thanks to all for your posts. |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:04 am: | |
Doug, that's the way it is with our praise team as well, they are to aid in the worship process, but not stand out at the same time. Have you read the book "heart of the artist"? Our arts department did it as a Bible study where it actually talks about the artist and their unique personalities associated to their gifts. Good study to get our heart in line as a servant and not so much as a performer (but there is the performance aspect as well). People still like to be appreciated and encouraged when they've done something well.
I actually feel out of place "giving the Lord a clap offering" because it does not seem like worship to me...that doesn't mean I don't go along, it just is not my preferred form of worship. Others aren't comfortable raising their hands...I guess it's the same thing... And I don't think I would ever be comfortable to applaud at the end of a sermon, though I've heard funny stories that would get someone clapping here and there. Our sermons always end with an invitation to Christ, though, so it would be really awkward to clap.
I guess we just need to worry about ourselves, our own motives and worry less about what others think about our actions or our motives. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 12:30 pm: | |
True, Melissa. One of the big differences in our church now from the Adventists churches where we have previously attended is that the music is not primarily a performance. Even solos (those occasional happenings) are worship, and their effects on the congregation are much different than the effects of "special music" in the Adventist church.
I've thought a lot about the role of the musician in church, because I was trained to be a classical soloist (and accompanist) in my Walla Walla College music major as well as by the SDA culture I lived in. In fact, since the bands and choirs of the academies are usually the recruiting tools instead of the sports teams, (since EGW forbade competitive sports--never mind that many SDA teams now play in the high school leagues) musicians were the heroes in Adventist schools in a way that's different from non-SDA schools.
I always thought of my music as a talent from God to be used for his glory, but the bottom line was still whether or not people recognized me as "competent" or "good".
In our church now, music just isn't about the performer. Yes, the music is well-prepared and rehearsed, and many of the musicians are hightly trained, but the focus is Jesus. In fact, there's much less focus on individual performers and much more on working together to lead EVERYONE in worship. It's really amazing to see the difference between music as church performance and music as corporate worship.
This distinction is not possible without the Holy Spirit. People who are not born again cannot truly worship God, and while a congregation of people who are not born again may feel convicted by true musical worship, they cannot truly respond in their own heartfelt worship unless they surrender themselves to Jesus.
Our church's policy is not to allow anyone participate in the worship teams unless they know Jesus. It's quite an interesting concept after being part of Adventist music for so many years.
I am so thankful for the transformation of everything in life that knowing Jesus effects!
Colleen |
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