Post Number: 3123
|Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 10:55 am: || |
When I was an Adventist, I'd let SDA doctrine "interpret" anything I read in the Bible and if I saw a contradiction between Adventist beliefs and what I saw in the Bible, I figured that it only "seemed" to be a contradiction and I'd skip quickly over it. Take this example...
Genesis 9:3 says that Noah and his sons were told that they could eat "every moving thing that lives."
Leviticus 20:23-26 says that God was separating Israel from the nations. Therefore He commanded them to separate from unclean meats. (Now Adventists like to use the example that 7 of each clean animal and 2 of the unclean went into the ark. They fail to realize that it was the clean animals that were the ones that were sacrificed, not the unclean - so it wasn't even about food; plus they fail to realize that Noah was told he could eat "every moving thing that lived" after the flood.)
Acts 10 was one where, as an Adventist, I didn't put things together. I'd tell someone who would tell me that the sheet full of animals in Peter's vision showed that we could now eat unclean animals: "but the animals represent PEOPLE!" I just didn't put it together at all! The animals in Leviticus ALSO meant people whom God was separating Israel from! When Jesus died, He tore down that wall of separation between Jew and Gentile - Ephesians 2:11-15 and Galatians 3:28. So as you can see, the law about the foods has been fulfilled. (Also Romans 14:14 says there aren't "unclean" animals now.)
Adventists need to read the New Covenant (New Testament) and see what it says...
Post Number: 1028
|Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 11:39 am: || |
I remember as I was starting to study my way out of Adventism, some of the Adventists I talked to had this idea that just sitting down and studying your Bible without any SDA materials was the way someone got "deceived."
This is one of the most heinous of their lies, one they share with the Roman Catholic Church: The Bible can deceive you, but their church's materials will not. Enitrely backwards and it shows that the spirit behind their doctrines is not the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible.
Post Number: 210
|Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 1:04 pm: || |
Thanks for clarifying the 7 clean animals were for sacrifices, not eating. It would have to mean that or it would be in contradiction to eating every moving thing that lives. That was an Aha moment for me.
Post Number: 16
|Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 3:53 pm: || |
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Romans 14:17 (ESV). You hit it it, Asurprise, when you said Sadventists need to read the New Testament. Sadventism is an Old Covenant religion.
Post Number: 14486
|Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2013 - 4:32 pm: || |
Post Number: 14487
|Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2013 - 4:38 pm: || |
BTW, I had a phone call this morning from a friend, a "former", who had been listening to John Courson on her way to work. He was teaching through Genesis 9, and today was part two of His Genesis 9 study.
She said Courson talked about God giving Noah everything that moved under the Noahic covenant, and he went on to say that some studies have been done that link vegetarianism with demonic activity.
I haven't listened yet to the sermon, although I want to...but here's the page where you can hear today's sermon: http://www.joncourson.com/searchlightradio/searchlightradioprograms.asp
Think about Buddists, Hindus, and various new age groups. Vegetarianism and veganism are advocated, and they're advocated for the same reasons EGW promoted it: enhancing mental clarity for spiritual discernment.
Scripture never links spiritual discernment with diet. It's always about believing God and trusting His word and being born again.
Post Number: 471
|Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2013 - 5:37 pm: || |
Just to put my two cents worth in here but I don't know anything about New Age stuff but I do know that Buddhism and Hinduism way predate Christianity. Hindus are vegetarian and don't use eggs because of the belief in reincarnation. Buddhists are not generally vegetarian although many believe in reincarnation. Buddhism is more of a philosophy and way of life than a religion. As far as satanic influence, well that's what Satan does and :-Devil.
Post Number: 480
|Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 10:23 am: || |
I listened to the sermon. I went back & listened to what he said on Genesis 6 as well for perspective. His context is discussing the covenants of God from Adam onward, as well as the context of seducing spirits from the difficult passage of Gen 6:1-3.
He also references a book by G H Plemmer, Earths Earliest Ages & Modern Spiritualism, on this topic of vegetarianism & spiritualism. He said that there are some thinkers & bible students who think there is a connection, & that you can do some interesting studies on this topic.
Here is a link to the full teaching in the video format. You can listen from the 30:00-40.00 minute marks for the part on diet & meat eating.
You can just listen to the Radio Broadcast version also, but I couldn't fast forward to a specific spot on that on my computer .
I was initially upset when he said the Noahic covenant was about 3 things: Diet, Discipline, & Declaration. Whew! Red flags for me! I almost turned him off at that point.
He links vegetarianism with living in the last times, (citing 1 Timothy 4:1-5), with seducing spirits, which interacted with women prior to the flood. He is referencing that Noah lived in the last days before God destroyed the world by flood, & the end times will be like it was in the days of Noah. He explores the question as to WHY God now changed man's diet to meat. It's not what we were taught!
It's worth a listen & a consideration. What I call provocative.
Post Number: 1127
|Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 10:51 am: || |
Jon Courson is one of the first "Christian" Minister/Teachers of GOD's Word,
I read and listened to when I was coming out of adventism.
I still read his teaching. He has really blessed me with his insight.
Post Number: 481
|Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 11:42 am: || |
I have never heard his name before, not that it matters. :-)
My red flags had to do with my sda baggage around 'Salvation by Diet' type thinking. And the word 'Disciplines' has some connotations in the area of contemplative prayer, etc etc, so I wondered where he was coming from, & where he was taking us. lol!
I honestly think there must be some connection between new age spiritualism & vegetarian/veganism. It is certainly becoming increasingly widespread, & connected with beliefs.
For sure, it isn't biblical.
Post Number: 482
|Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 11:48 am: || |
I went looking for the book by Plemmer, & found this link to a previous FAF discussion where Colleen says it all so much better than I ever could:
Post Number: 483
|Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 12:11 pm: || |
The book was written by G H Pember. When I searched on Amazon I found that it has a current publishing date of 2012, but there were out-of-print copies dating back to, tah-dah!!
"Earth's earliest ages: And their connection with modern spiritualism and theosophy by G. H Pember (1887)"
1887??!! that's one egw didn't plagiarize, but could have had access to. Maybe we know why she didn't. . . .
Post Number: 322
|Posted on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 5:27 am: || |
I have been vegetarian since birth. I am 33 and still don't eat meat. I know diet has nothing to do with salvation. Yet I still don't want to eat meat. Do I have to?
I have thought that one negative thing about my vegetarianism is that it can be socially isolating. Most people eat meat, and I have been in situations that were uncomfortable because I felt I had nothing to eat.
Does vegetarianism have to make people into spiritualists?
Post Number: 3127
|Posted on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 8:51 am: || |
Butterfly; no you don't have to eat meat. Eating meat to help get/stay saved would definitely be legalism. I think avoiding meat - unless one is very careful to get the protein they need - makes a person weaker. Spiritualists want to have as few defenses against demons as possible so the demons can use them more easily. At least I think that's why spiritualists and new agers don't eat meat.
Of course if you've accepted Jesus' finished work in your behalf - which Adventist's haven't - then you're protected from any demons.
Post Number: 14490
|Posted on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 3:11 pm: || |
Vegetarianism doesn't make a person a spiritualist, as Asurprise has said!
It's interesting that a lot of new age religions embrace vegetarianism. Madam Blavotsky, the founder of theosophy, taught vegetarianism for the purpose of having a clear mind and thus enhanced spiritual perceptions. Blavotsky was an occultist, and, interestingly, she established the Theosophical Society in New York in the 1870's after her move here from central Europe. She was a contemporary of EGW.
Post Number: 473
|Posted on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 3:25 pm: || |
You don't gave to eat animal carcasses if you don't want to. However, just to put some levity in this discussion and to let you all know just how off the beaten path some of my kin are, I have a cousin who insists meat eating is Biblically mandatory because when God explains the clean and unclean meats He says, "these shall ye eat". And, my dear cousin says the word shall is a command just as the words shall not are a command to not do something so he says it's a sin to not eat dead animals.
Post Number: 2020
|Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2013 - 3:34 pm: || |
You certainly couldn't be a practicing Jew, follow God's Laws and be a vegetarian. There was no vegetarian option for the Passover. There were animal sacrifices that the giver of the sacrifice had to eat. And priests had to eat even more of the sacrifices. These weren't options where you "could" eat meat, they were the requirements of the law.
So if you were Jewish, meat eating was mandatory!
Post Number: 2021
|Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2013 - 3:44 pm: || |
And let's not beat around the bush, Ellen White's reason for avoiding meat and other animal products wasn't simply to increase spiritual clarity it was to minimize sexual desire- which she saw as being contrary to spiritual clarity. It was sexual activity that caused the body to be drained of its vital life forces which in turn caused all of the diseases and death Ellen White attributed to diet. Ellen White's "health message" was really an "anti-sex" message.
Post Number: 1236
|Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2013 - 4:24 pm: || |
I was raised vegetarian from birth (vegan for the last half of my childhood), and did not have my first meat until age 39. It's taken a few years to work up to including more meat variety in my diet, but it has been worth it. Now I can hardly stand to have a vegetarian lunch or dinner and regularly eat beef, chicken, and fish - occasionally pork. I started out learning to eat meat because being vegetarian was so socially isolating (it certainly is a separating wall) and made traveling far more inconvenient, especially since we were getting ready for a trip to Europe at the time. The other benefit I discovered is how much more nutritionally satisfying it is to have meat in a meal; I can eat less, feel fuller, and there's no sugar rush/crash from too many carbs - especially when I also drastically decreased bread/pasta items. And I love how much easier my homemade chili with real beef (instead of with veggie burger), sits on my stomach - very comfortable.
Post Number: 330
|Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2013 - 5:08 pm: || |
It may not sit on the stomach very comfortably without a little snack with it but some good fresh dark roast java does it for me. I'm dumb as a rock in the a.m. without it and need re-upping later on.
Ric I think your ewhite reference was her abhorrence of masturbation, that it'd make you go blind or some other horrible thing. The shrinks get really suspicious of loud protestors that they might be imbibers themselves. LOL, what a twisted mess.
Post Number: 14492
|Posted on Monday, June 24, 2013 - 2:28 pm: || |
Yes, it's true, Rick. EGW's vegetarianism really was "anti-sex", and she wrote plenty of things about its dangers besides her warnings against meat-triggered animal passions.
Raven, I know exactly what you mean. I feel so much better--less full, more satisfied--after a meal with meat than I ever did after a carb-rich "vegetarian" meal.
Given what we now know about carbs and diabetes and heart disease, it is SO ironic that for so many decades Adventists taught that a carb/gluten-rich diet was "healthful" and made us less prone to chronic disease. That teaching, too, was a lie.
Post Number: 14493
|Posted on Monday, June 24, 2013 - 2:29 pm: || |
OH--Charles, I agree with you about that java!
Post Number: 2026
|Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 1:48 pm: || |
Charles, EGW spoke against both masturbation and "marital excess" with the underlying reason that it depleted the body of our vital forces. And it wasn't just going blind. Here is a list of things that EGW attributed to sexual activity:
• dwarfed forms,
• crippled limbs,
• misshapen heads,
• deformity of every description
• complaints of headache,
• pain in the shoulders and side,
• loss of appetite,
• pain in the back and limbs,
• wakeful, feverish nights,
• tired feelings in the morning,
• great exhaustion after exercising
• weak and stunted physical frame,
• flabby muscles,
• small, swollen eyes,
• treacherous memory,
• inability to concentrate,
• a sudden breaking down of the constitution, and
The reason for avoid animal products, spices, and even coffee/tea was that it aroused your passion, resulting in more sexual activity and, as a result, all of these dreadful health consequences. As the years went on, EGW never explained new reasons for these health consequences of the foods she banned.
What everyone must understand about EGW's writings is that there is very little original work (and I'm not talking about the copying from others) compared to the books and books of material. A personal letter gets copied with a few edits to make a review article. The review article gets copied with a few edits to make one book. Bits and pieces of that book got copied to make a new book. And that was while EGW was still overseeing everything. The copying and recompiling got even worse after she died. So when you want to understand the "reasons" behind the advice, you often have to go to the first letters or books where it was originally explained. That is when you learn that the SDA "health gospel" is really an "anti-sex" gospel. And when you read these in their original context the passage from 1 Tim 4 makes even more sense when you consider that the forbidding of marriage was effectively an anti-sex teaching:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Post Number: 14506
|Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 4:13 pm: || |
Yup. It's true. I was looking at that 1 Tim. passage with some friends last Thursday, and I realized how completely EGW specifically taught both of the doctrines of demons Paul named...forbidding foods, and "forbidding" marriage. If one followed her marriage advice, one would essentially "live like the angels", co-habiting a house but being basically roommates after the kids were born...
Her "counsels" were from the domain of darkness.
Post Number: 1346
|Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 10:40 pm: || |
OK--here's a link to something I've never heard re: meat, demons & the Greeks...start listening at minute 20. It's only about 2 minutes long. What an interesting historical fact about meat!
Now, I haven't researched it yet, but this guy's a pastor at a local Calvary Chapel....another link to meat-eating & spirituality.
Post Number: 2030
|Posted on Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 6:29 am: || |
An interesting idea, but I haven't been able to find anything that would verify his claims.
Post Number: 1128
|Posted on Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 7:10 am: || |
I think the pastor who is speaking on the link you provided is
Kenton Beshore~ the name of the church is
Mariners~ Irvine, Ca.
I have listened to him many times, and have been truly blessed.
Post Number: 1348
|Posted on Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 10:39 pm: || |
Oh, I found the program--it is David Rosales of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills on a program called "A Sure Foundation"...