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Message |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:53 pm: |     |
Honest Witness
In the begining God created Adam and Eve. One man and one woman. That is what He intended marriage to be.
God has a perfect will for us and also a permissive will...Because God gives man a free will.
God's perfect will was to eat of the tree of life.
His permissive will is to allow the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God's perfect will is one man and one woman.
His permissive will allowed free choice..which allowed multiple wives. The patriachs were not perfect either.
God condemned slavery or man stealing or slavery as we regard it where a person is taken against their will and forced to do a master's will against their own with harsh punishment like the Africans who were kidnapped and sold.
Exodus 21:16
16 He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.
In the NT slave traders are listed among those are unGodly and sinful and are in the same category as those who kill |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 62
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 12:47 am: | |
their fathers and their mothers, murderers, adulterers, perverts and liars and perjurers. I Timothy 8-10
If you read the Bible carefully and in context of the time the slavery that is regulated in both the OT and NT is more voluntary sevanthood like a employee/servant/slave - employer/master relationship. It was more a benefit to a poor person, who needed help rather than a wealthy person using them for profit.
Again God allowed in His permissive will the free will of man which allowed the condemned slavery too.
Thoughts:
What the enemy means for evil God uses for good..
as the slavery that Joseph was sold into ...taught him to trust God and saved Israel in a time of famine.
The condemned slavery is a picture of sin.
The Hebrew slaves were saved by the blood of the Passover lamb and led out of bondage into the promised land.
By the blood of the Lamb of God we are led out of slavery/bondage to sin into the promised land of new life in Christ.
The Israelites were to seek out and conquer the enemies of God in the land that He promised them.
We are to seek out and conquer = be overcomers in our new life things that linger from our lives as slaves to sin.
Surely, you can see that God did not condone the holocaust, that again is the result of free will and choosing to sin.
But what satan meant for evil, God used to bring His scattered people back to the land He had given them and fulfilled prohecy ...
on May 14 1948 the nation of Israel existed again after 1500 years of being scattered among the nations....
Isaiah 66:8
Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in ONE DAY?
Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her sons.
love
handmaiden |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 6:31 am: | |
To comment on serving wine at Communion, our Lutheran church serves both wine and grape juice. And it's real easy to tell which is which, because it's white grape juice. I have never heard one comment, issue, or complaint from anyone that it is a stumbling block to serve wine. Those who want grape juice take it, and those who want wine take that - absolutely not a big deal. It's such a small amount anyway (the only time I had it, reminded me of cold medicine--yuck!). Our kids each had the wine at their first communion there and neither one could stand it - they've done grape juice ever since. Our church goes to extra lengths, so I've been told, to have the most unpleasant, bitter-tasting wine to remind people of what an unpleasant experience Jesus' suffering was. I don't think it encourages anyone to have more alcohol. Having these two options allows those who feel strongly against alcohol to not have it, and those who feel strongly that it should authentically be real wine or it's useless, to have real wine. No one looks down on the other for their choice - it's all in perfect harmony.
And by the way, in our church, I have on rare occasion heard a joking beer comment or two around small talk, but certainly nothing more than could be heard anywhere else - even in an SDA church! There is no alcohol served at any church function (other than Communion wine). Of course it may be different in individual homes. For example, even a purely social event at the church will never have alcohol served. Yet a church-related social event that is at a church member's home - it's up to the host if they want to serve alcohol or not. I have been to a couple of these social events at church member's homes where alcohol was served, and I have never seen anyone overdo it or get anywhere close to drunk. As far as I can tell, the people at our church respect differences and do consider stumbling block issues. And they know self-control.
(Message edited by Raven on July 03, 2009)
(Message edited by Raven on July 03, 2009) |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5154
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 6:45 am: | |
What just happened here, at the core of it, had nothing to do with our communion, wine or no wine.
What it does have to do with is that the devil comes in to steal, kill, and destroy.
He worms his way into our love feasts to cause dissension, bad feelings, worry and unrest. The enemy watches for his chance and then boom, he is in there.
After all these years I still can’t figure out how he does it and I get taken by surprise, he watches for a chance to push our buttons, always looking for a weak spot so he can destroy friendships and relationships, but there is one thing we have that works is that we can humble ourselves before God, resist him and he has to flee.
I have no doubt in my mind that Colleen, Richard, Dale and Carolyn have experienced coming under these attacks in the last few days and weeks, but humbling ourselves in prayer and by Gods help we overcome.
This forum comes under attacks from time to time and the most of the time I can see what’s going on, but not always. The Bible is true and Paul call’s them fiery darts, Eph. 6: 11-18.
I am still convinced in my mind and in my spirit that God is doing a mighty work this summer among the Adventist population and I believe we will see much results by late fall and winter. It is God that gives the increase and I look for that.
Handmaiden talked about choice, well, I choose love, understanding, mercy, forgiveness, compassion, well being, joy unspeakable, cheerfulness, humbleness before God, prayer, reaching out to others through whatever means comes available.
I know I have weak spots, tailings if you will, from my past, stumbling blocks, but today I choose to rise above that. I am sorry for letting those weak spots cause me to say things I shouldn’t have said, things I should have thought over before I said them and to cause others pain. I am asking God to help me today and for you to forgive me.
River |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 261
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 7:23 am: | |
River, I believe the Lord has given you the insight and wisdom to know that this disagreement had nothing to do with the actual content of the topic at hand. It seems like most folks really have trouble separating deep, spiritual attacks from the surface stuff. Fascinating life lesson... |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 7:30 am: | |
Yes, I recognize the spiritual attack versus surface stuff. I was getting back to the original question, before all this other "stuff" happened. I just wanted to be a little clearer what it is like at our Lutheran church because it seemed like HW was getting the impression that Lutherans are over the top on the alcohol jokes and actions - and I've never seen anything close to that. I'm all for getting the facts straight.
(Message edited by Raven on July 03, 2009) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10099
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 11:38 am: | |
River, you're right. One of the most common ways I am aware of the enemy attempting to ruin "things" is by inciting disagreements, fights, hurt feelings, etc etc. It's very effective, and I have noticed that this sort of thing often increases when something significant is pending—such as getting Proclamation done, going on tours of encouragement, FAF weekends, etc etc.
Thank you for recognizing what was happening. It seems that life is an ongoing call to submit and surrender and to make the Lord Jesus one's only focus and reason for being. It seems He continually brings me face-to-face with my need to surrender the people and relationships that I most love and treasure to the Lord so that I relate even to those I know the best through Him.
I'm not sure I'm making sense here, but I'll just say that the enemy is subtle and gets us at the points of our personal vulnerabilities. I always have to end up submitting to the Lord Jesus and behaving as He directs because the fact is that the fights and disagreements that crop up and feel so threatening are part of what Paul means when he says we don't fight against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and authorities.
We answer to Jesus, ultimately, not to each other. We love each other for Him; we offer ourselves as living sacrifices to Him. He desires to glorify Himself through us.
Colleen |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 161
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 2:34 pm: | |
Okay folks!
I haven't looked at this thread in days and now I feel that I need to clarify.
My original comments were in no way meant to disparage Lutherans or any practices of the Lutheran church. In fact, I thought I had clearly stated that, had there a Lutheran congregation been located closer to my home, it would have been my first church choice. I am very happy with the Family of God I have been given (Christian Church, Disciples of Christ). We have found a fit with my beliefs because of their flexibility on disputable matters. Let me reiterate, however, that doctrinally Lutheranism is my first choice of any church that I have encountered.
I made comments in relation to alcohol only because I thought they would be relevant to the feelings HW had expressed on behalf to her husband.
I stand by my comment regarding congregations that may require total abstinence from alcohol amongst their members.
While drunkenness is forbidden in Scripture, use of, or abstinence from, alcohol are disputable matters. I have learned that SDA is not the only group that is brazen enough to make dogmatic rules about matters that Scripture leaves disputable. Such groups quickly move from one legality to another. Soon they are legislating dress and sleeve length.
One Ignores Red Flags At Their Own Peril!
Pegg
(Message edited by pegg on July 03, 2009) |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 778
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 7:20 pm: | |
WOW, I feel so much better. I can let out my deep breath and stop counting. God is so good.
Since I'm on cell this is a short comment.
Richard
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Randyg
Registered user
Username: Randyg
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 1:10 am: | |
You and me both Richard!! |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5157
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 7:27 am: | |
Leigh Anne and I are ok, as a cop might say at a fender bender 'there is nothing to see here'.
Satan has won nothing and love is intact, and his attacks will be turned upon his own head and what he has meant for evil, God will use for good.
I may have weak spots from my past that leave me vulnerable, but that don’t mean that I am dumbed down and can’t see at all.
I may not be able to see these attacks coming all the time, but that don’t mean I am not aware of them.
As I read in Proclamation on page three in the open letter to Ken Campbell It brought my attention to the fact that we are beginning to be called ‘The Ratzlaff cult’.
I remember a couple years back as I made the observation that it appears that God takes folk out of the Adventist cult and plants them in different church organizations, A Baptist here, a Methodist there and a Lutheran over there and so forth and so on.
I looked at this picture in amazement and I thought ‘Lord, I think I see what you are doing, but why are you doing it?’ is it all co-incidental? I don’t think so. I don’t think it was even co-incidental that I saw this picture a couple years ago.
As the Mars mission reached success after the long hard work scientist and technicians stood in a room at JPL and waited to see the first picture of Mars terrain and they cheered as the first one came in, then putting all the cuts together we saw a panoramic picture of Mars surface. What a sight. A panoramic view of the red planet.
As I began to take the little cuts and put them together I seemed to get a panoramic view of the Lord taking his people out of a false church a placing them within all these organizations. Some call themselves independents, but they are just little organizations and the word independent church sort of strike me as funny at times and brings a smile to my face.
As I read Dales letter to Ken Campbell in Proclamation coming right on the tale end of this fender bender I had a real laugh. Trying to label us as ‘The Ratzlaff Cult’ is like trying to label and individual stone on the surface of Mars and calling that individual stone Mars!
Now here you got every evangelical church organization represented, at Procalmation!, at TOE and here and it is so laughably stupid to call us ‘The Ratzlaff cult’ it completely blows my mind! It’s funny! A Pentecostal and a Lutheran has a fender bender (which the Lord has already fixed and chugged us out the door as good as new, thank you) and I think he has used that to answer my question I had a couple years back and I says “Ahhh, now I think I see what you,ve done and at least part of why you did it!”
Ain’t no way any sane and reasonable thinking person in his right mind can label us ‘The Ratzlaff cult’.
We got just about every Evangelical Organization I know off represented here both domestic and abroad. We got never beens represented from at least two organizations and it is Lutheran and Pentecostal, how neat is that? And we love each other and we are just fine ‘ain’t nothing to see here, just keep moving’.
God knows our needs before we ask, furthermore, when we ain’t got sense enough to even ask, he does more for us that we can ask or think. He knew this day would come when they would try to label us and stick us in a box with its own neat label so they could try to shoot us all down. Trying to shoot us down is like trying to shoot a heard a ducks a mile wide with a twenty two. Its like trying to put out a three alarm fire with a garden hose.
As my old Platoon sergeant would yell, spread out, spread out, quit herding up like a buncha sheep! When you herd up the enemy can take a whole platoon out at once.
There may be some folks don’t like what God is doing, well…take it up with him is all I know to tell you.
And of course there is always the possibility that I’m wrong in all this and you can place your bets and go all in and we’ll see what comes up on the turn card.
River |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1719
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 9:20 am: | |
The love of God that comes from the heart of God is amazing.
A dear friend of Jan's spent the last couple of days with us as a "kind of retreat" from the pressures of her life...fighting cancer and an abusive husband, etc. When she left for home last night, she told Jan to tell me she loves me (and needlessly explained that it was in a "Godly way").
How neat it is to be able to lift up others with simple Godly living and love.
Yes River, God knows what he is doing.
P.S. See you tomorrow where we share our lives with others who love the Lord.
Fearless Phil |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5158
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 9:58 am: | |
I just went up and got my horse washed and fed him up on 87 octane oats.
If the Lord is willin' and the creek don't rise I will see you in Hermiston at Shari's, 800 S. Highway 395.
I will probably leave in the morning about 7:30, that should put me in Hermiston about 11:00.
River |
4truth
Registered user
Username: 4truth
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 8:31 pm: | |
I just found this thread. I am an ex-adventist that has been a ELCA Lutheran for many years. (currently congregation president among other things). Our congregation serves both grape juice and real wine at communion. While alcohol abstinance is not preached from the pulpit, no official church function ever has alcohol served. Drinking is not celebrated.
I honestly might consider changing denominations if the ELCA officially sanctions gay marriage and pastors. I don't mind having them as members any more than having a gossip a member, but let's call a sin a sin.
Other than that, I love it! |
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