| Author |
Message |
Joni
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 7:21 am: |     |
I have been reading this with interest. Just want to offer a book that I have read recently. It is by Marvin Rosenthal and called "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church."
I thought it very interesting. I won't go into the book, but he states that the rapture precedes the Day of the Lord. So the wrath of God won't be poured out on the Church, they will be taken before the wrath of God but will go through some tribulation, after the 6th trumpt. I need to review the book again to get it straight. Has anyone heard of the pre wrath theory?
It made sense to me, but than so did the Adventist church when I was in it until I started to study my Bible inductively. |
Bob
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 8:18 am: | |
I also am in the process of study and reevaluation of my understanding of Bible prophecy and events relating to the return of Jesus. In my research, I have come across a website whose content has stimulated my thinking! I recommend it to you:
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/index.html |
Jude the Obscure
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 1999 - 12:16 pm: | |
"RAPTURE" = "CAUGHT UP"
About the ìrapture,î hereís what Iím learning (using the New International Version or NIV):
I THESSALONIANS 4:16-17. ìFor the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.î
NIV TEXT NOTE: ìcaught up. The only place in the NT where a ëraptureí (from the Latin Vulgate rendering) is clearly referred to. Some hold that this will be secret, but Paul seems to be describing something open and public, with loud voices and a trumpet blast.î
I CORINTHIANS 12:1-5. ìI will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know ñ God knows. And I know that this man ñ whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows ñ was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself.î
NIV TEXT NOTE: ìcaught up to the third heaven Ö caught up to paradise. Paul is sure of this remarkable experience, but he is unsure whether this rapture (being ëcaught upí) was one that included the body or one that took place in separation from the body. The third heaven designates a place beyond the immediate heaven of the earthís atmosphere and beyond the further heaven of outer space and its constellations into the presence of God himself. Thus the risen and glorified Lord is said to have passed through the heavensí (Heb. 4:14), and now, having ëascended higher than all the heavensí (Eph. 4:110), to be ëexalted above the heavensí (Heb. 7:26). The term ëparadiseí is synonymous with the third heaven, where those believers who have died are even now ëat home with the Lordí (5:8; cf. ëwith Christ,í Php. 1:23). The nature of the inexpressible things that Paul heard remains unknown to us because this is something Paul was not permitted to tell. It was an experience that must have given incalculable strength to this apostleship, which involved him in such constant and extreme suffering. Moreover, as this experience was not self-induced, it afforded him no room for self-glorification (vv. 5-6).î
From the above, I would draw these conclusions:
1. In the first instance (Thess. 4:16-17) Paul writes of a future, public (i.e., not-secret and definitely not quiet) event in which ìwe who are alive and remainî will first watch the ìdead in Christî rise to meet Jesus in the clouds of the air and will next join them in being thus "caught up."
2. In the second instance (1 Cor. 12:1-5) Paul recounts a past event, what ìa man I knowî told him about an experience Paul categorizes under the heading ìvisions and revelations.î Paul is not sure whether the man was taken up in an in-the-body (or ìThessalonians typeî) of experience or in an out-of-the-body (or ìCorinthians typeî) of experience.
3. This acquaintance of Paulís heard ìinexpressible thingsî that nobody is ìpermitted to tell.î Which raises this question: Since Paul did experience visions (e.g., the one on the road to Damascus), did Paul also know such things that he wasn't permitted to tell us?
4. Paul thought it possible to travel physically through space (astrotravel?) as part of a vision or revelation. This idea is foreign to our Western, scientific presuppositions and assumptions. Therefore, this verse would lend credibility to the possibility (not the necessity) that ìsecret raptureî type experiences are possible and thus may have happened many times throughout history.
5. While the ìCorinthians typeî of experience MAY be secret (i.e., "out of body"), the ìThessalonians typeî is DEFINITELY NOT.
6. To superimpose the ìCorinthians typeî of experience onto the ìThessalonians typeî -- as many have done -- would seem to do violence to Scripture.
7. Paul clearly expected himself to be so "caught up" in his lifetime, for he wrote, "we who are still alive and are left will be caught up."
8. Conclusion 7 seems to lead directly to this: that for Paul the "end times" were already underway (having begun at Pentecost) and that therefore the SDA idea of "the end times" not beginning till October 22,1844 is totally unbiblical and nothing less than world-class error.
9. The fact that nearly 2000 years have passed since those(and many similar New Testament texts) were written down, should give us some kind of pause about the difference between God's sense of time and ours and should WARN US AWAY FROM ANY KIND OF DATE-SETTING, such as Y2K.
What does everybody else think?
Jude |
Lori
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 1999 - 4:32 am: | |
Questions????
Matt. 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
It says 'the elect will be gathered from the four winds,from one end of the heavens to the other'. not, from one end of the earth to another. Where will the elect be??
It says it will be as in the days of Noah, well, Noah was 'sealed' inside the ark for 7 days before the flood.
It says the coming of the Son of Man is like the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins. The wise had the light and the oil, (is the oil the Holy Spirit or is it the blood of Christ?) Does the story of the virgins parallel with these verses in 1 John 1:5? '.....God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Didn't the 5 foolish virgins have to walk in the darkness looking for oil?
And when they returned he knew them not.
I don't know the answer to the question about the rapture. Scripture seems to be clear, however, that there will be a place of safety for those who hear His voice.
The most important thing is to be so familiar with our Masters voice that we cannot be deceived!!
Happy New Year To You All!!
Lori |
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