| Author |
Message |
Patti
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 9:20 am: |     |
Think, Max.
Do you think that the work of the Holy Spirit in you is finished, complete, perfect, all-sufficient?
BTW, I gave many, many scriptures in the post above. |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:05 am: | |
What I think is not important. What Scripture
says is.
And Scripture is clear that the work of
God the Holy Spirit IS the work of God the Son
AND the work of God the Father (both at the
cross and within the believer) -- all
three-in-one, all one-in-three, all God
inseparable forever.
The fact that our overly intellectualized
Western mind set cannot rationalize this
mysterious paradox is insufficient reason to
deny and reject it.
Our human opinions cannot be allowed to
dictate the meaning of Scripture. Scripture
speaks for itself, and the best we can do is to
try to understand it. It is not our province to
force it to conform to our preconceived ideas
and thought patterns. |
Patti
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:37 am: | |
Max wrote:
What I think is not important. What Scripture
says is.
Which you have yet to address.
And Scripture is clear that the work of
God the Holy Spirit IS the work of God the Son
AND the work of God the Father (both at the
cross and within the believer)
So would you give me a single example of New Testament believers, being filled with the Holy Spirit, testifying to their changed lives?
-- all
three-in-one, all one-in-three, all God
inseparable forever.
And distinct. If not distinct, then there is no point in the doctrine of the Trinity.
The fact that our overly intellectualized
Western mind set cannot rationalize this
mysterious paradox is insufficient reason to
deny and reject it.
Is this an indictment of my words or of yours?
Our human opinions cannot be allowed to
dictate the meaning of Scripture. Scripture
speaks for itself, and the best we can do is to
try to understand it.
Actually, we can do much better than that. We are promised that the Holy Spirit will guide the believer in Jesus Christ into all Truth. So what part of the Scripture are we not able to understand when aided by the Spirit?
It is not our province to
force it to conform to our preconceived ideas
and thought patterns.
You call the Gospel of Jesus Christ a "preconceived idea and thought pattern." You know, Max, your words are sometimes indistinguishable to the answers I get from SDAs who insist that we can and must overcome our sinful flesh. Are you sure you have left SDAism? Or have you left only for another form of legalism? Any belief system that focuses the believer on his/herself is a legalistic system. It truly makes me wonder why it is not good enough for those who claim the name of Jesus to "know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified." If we are going to sing the song of salvation in the Lamb throughout all eternity, how can we tire of it in a few short posts in a single isolated forum in an all too short lifetime? Why is the constant uplifting of Jesus Christ not "enough" for you? It was enough for Paul; it was enough for the disciples and early Christians?
Scripture only speaks accurately for itself when interpreted by the Holy Spirit, which we can only receive when we believe in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is THE Truth. All else revolves around this great Truth and must be judged by it.
I have but one question of you:
What are you maintaining that we can and/or must attain in this lifetime higher or greater or deeper or more profound than being accepted by God for the sake of the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ? |
Rayna
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 7:55 pm: | |
CAN'T TOP THAT ANSWER PATTI. JESUS AND HIS SACRIFICE FOR US AT CALVARY AND THE MEDIATING OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNES FOR US IN HEAVEN IS GREATER THAN THE HUMAN MIND CAN CONCEIVE. THEY HOLY SPIRIT POINTS US TO JESUS AND THE WHAT WE HAVE IN HIM, NOT IN OURSELVES. THE HOLY SPIRIT NEVER SPEAKS OF HIMSELF, BUT ONLY JESUS, AND JESUS CAME TO REVEAL THE FATHER TO US. THE TRINITY IS GOD, JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND EACH HAS A WORK THAT IS SEPARATE AND DISTINCT.
GOOD JOB PATTI!!
RAYNA |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:29 pm: | |
Hi Patti and Rayna,
Hey girls, I just don't understand why you are so hung up on what you THINK someone else is saying to EVEN TRY TO read what they are saying!
Both of you have refused to answer several specific questions I have asked. That leaves two logical reasons for not even a breath of an answer.
1...You can't answer.
2...You never read the questions stated numerous times.
If you can't answer, I certainly understand.
If you've never read the questions, why? And if you are not reading the QUESTIONS to you, it would also make sense that you are not reading the ANSWERS to you. The answers are abundantly clear that non of us involved in this discussion EVER said what you claim we say and that is, us having to be perfect or scratching at perfection of ourselves in this life! We CAN'T do that! No one in the history of this world (since the fall) ever accomplished that EXCEPT JESUS! Nothing we can do can even make a wart on a hogs back in comparison to the magnificent thing Christ did for us!!!!
The fact that you (Patti) said this:
"I have but one question of you:
What are you maintaining that we can and/or must attain in this lifetime higher or greater or deeper or more profound than being accepted by God for the sake of the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ?"
Proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you, (neither of you) have read the responses to your post's.
I haven't noticed the same attitude towards, let's say, Colleen or myself, as both of you display towards Max!!?? Is it a personal vendetta?
The other thing though, is that God puts everything in the place he wants it. The gospel being repeated and re-repeated is the important thing.
Please accept this in the "ment friendly" spirit it is intended............Maryann |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 11:48 pm: | |
I'm frustrated with the antagonistic tone I'm reading in so many posts. I just received an email today from one forum member who has been deeply hurt by the strong words and antagonistic comments which this person perceived in several forum conversations.
Please understand that the comments mentioned in the email were not about those involved in this conversation today. But I still say that if our proclamation of Jesus and his finished work is to have any effect on lurkers or on people struggling with Adventism, we must be loving. I don't mean loving in a contrived way or according to a formula. I mean loving in the sense that we ask God to love those who read these posts by inspiring our words and showing us his compassion for them.
I love the scholarship and sincerity and insight of those who post here. I pray that we can allow each other to see differently from each other. We all agree that Jesus is all.
Our pastor said last Sunday that some Christians are still thirsty because they are not availing themselves of the living water the Holy Spirit offers each Christ-follower. But, he pointed out, we receive the Holy Spirit by coming to Christ, not by looking for the Holy Spirit. As Patti said above, the Holy Spirit is about Jesus: he is Jesus living in us, and he convinces us of the reality of Jesus and his sacrifice.
But, as Max says, we can expect Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit to make changes in our lives after we accept him. These changes are not our testimony, but they are a part of our Christian walk.
I pray that we all ask God to reveal to us our blind spots and to teach us what he wants us to know. I heard a wonderful quote from a man I respected hugely a few years ago: If your view of God is the same as it was last year, you're worshiping a graven image. We all have so much to learn. Reality and truth are so much bigger than we can see. Walking with Jesus means our understanding grows continually!
I love you, and I pray for us all!
Colleen |
Cindy
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 6:34 am: | |
Colleen, I agree with you!
Our focal point as far as salvation must remain and Rest at the FINISHED WORK of CHRIST!!
JESUS' life, death, and resurrection ALONE is sufficient for our complete and total righteousness, something alien to what we can ever,ever achieve!!!!
The 'changes' that occur (visible or not!!) are not our testimony... but part of our Christian walk!!
And we must always remember that everyone follows and is disciplined and guided by the Holy Spirit in different ways! And all in God's timing...
Have a good day with those 9th graders!
Grace always,
Cindy |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 7:01 am: | |
Thank you, Cindy!
You are so right.
"And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to Me." |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 7:15 pm: | |
Any idea that the changes the Holy Spirit
makes in our lives after we accept Jesus can
be part of our testimony is unscriptural.
Scripture recognizes that these changes do
occur as part of our Christian walk, but it
unscriptural to ourself. All credit goes to God
alone. Hear Scripture:
^^"Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." For
it is not the one who commends himself who
is approved, but the one whom the Lord
commends.^^ 2Corinthians 10:17-18 NIV.
Therefore, give credit where credit is due.
--Blessings to all! |
Patti
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 7:22 pm: | |
Therefore, give credit where credit is due.
Like the Pharisee did?
"I thank THEE, GOD that I am not as other men are." |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 7:32 pm: | |
If we stick to Scripture alone, we see that
giving credit to God is not what the boasting
Pharisee was doing. He was crediting only
himself, for his prayer was a sham. Paul
thanked God many times for deliverances of
various kinds. Paul also recognized the
"abundance" of his labors. Yet he did not
credit himself. He did credit God and thanked
God. Compare the Pharisee's prayer to Paul's
confession to see the critical difference
between the two men.
2 Corinthians 12:5-10 NIV:
^^5 ....I will not boast about myself, except
about my weaknesses.
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not
be a fool, because I would be speaking the
truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of
me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7 To keep me from becoming conceited
because of these surpassingly great
revelations, there was given me a thorn in my
flesh [his dim eyesight], a messenger of
Satan, to torment me.
8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it
away from me.
9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for
you, for my power is made perfect in
weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more
gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's
power may rest on me.
10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in
weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in
persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am
weak, then I am strong.^^
Blessings to you Patti! |
Patti
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 7:54 pm: | |
You never answered any of my questions above, but I will narrow them down to a single one:
Just what higher, greater, deeper, fuller, and more profound experience are you looking for than our complete acceptance by God for the sake of the death (forgiveness) and the life (His own righteousness imputed to those who believe in Him) of Jesus Christ?
(I would appreciate a direct answer to this one if you can give one.)
Is our standing perfect before God in Jesus Christ not enough? |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 8:04 pm: | |
Ephesians 2:1-10 (NIV)
1 As for you, you were dead in your
transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed
the ways of this world and of the ruler of the
kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at
work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time,
gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and
following its desires and thoughts. Like the
rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God,
who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we
were dead in transgressions--it is by grace
you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and
seated us with him in the heavenly realms in
Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might
show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in his kindness to us in Christ
Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved,
through faith--and this not from yourselves, it
is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in
Christ Jesus to do good works, which God
prepared in advance for us to do.
Blessings to one and all! |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 8:09 pm: | |
Ephesians 2:1-10 (NIV)
1 As for you, you were dead in your
transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed
the ways of this world and of the ruler of the
kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at
work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time,
gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and
following its desires and thoughts. Like the
rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God,
who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we
were dead in transgressions--it is by grace
you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and
seated us with him in the heavenly realms in
Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might
show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in his kindness to us in Christ
Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved,
through faith--and this not from yourselves, it
is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in
Christ Jesus to do good works, which God
prepared in advance for us to do.
T H E R E F O R E ....
Ephesians 5:
1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly
loved children
2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us
and gave himself up for us as a fragrant
offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint
of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity,
or of greed, because these are improper for
God's holy people.
4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or
coarse joking, which are out of place, but
rather thanksgiving.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral,
impure or greedy person--such a man is an
idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of
Christ and of God. [1]
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for
because of such things God's wrath comes
on those who are disobedient.
7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you
are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all
goodness, righteousness and truth)
10 and find out what pleases the Lord.
11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds
of darkness, but rather expose them.
12 For it is shameful even to mention what the
disobedient do in secret.
13 But everything exposed by the light
becomes visible,
14 for it is light that makes everything visible.
This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on
you."
Many many blessings to one and all! |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 3:18 am: | |
Patti, Rayna, Maryann, Colleen, Cindy, ... , and
any I may have missed, God bless you all! It's
been sheer delight trading Scriptures with you!
Max of the Cross |
Jay
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:27 pm: | |
Colleen, I agree with you that we so much need the
love of Christ in our hearts as we interact with
each other, whether here on this forum or
elsewhere.
Today at work I a co-worker and I were in a
heated argument. I felt so angrily right about my
position. This co-worker happens be a good
friend and dear brother in Christ. I still think
I am "right" about the issue over which he and I
disagreed, but I know that my spirit during our
discussion was not totally one of love, but rather
one tinged with pride and ego.
There are times when we must not yield essential
truths. The task is to discern what is essential.
I struggle with this a lot. Is this struggle
familiar to anybody else?
Grace of Christ to you all (I sure need it!).
Jay |
Cindy
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:00 pm: | |
Jay,
Oh yes, that struggle is familiar! What is essential? and what is debatable and not that vital in the whole scheme of things...?
And what part does a real "jealousy" for the truth of the Gospel as seen only in Jesus play in my conversations... when does pride seem to take over and turn into a "control" issue for others to see exactly like I do!?
I enjoy discussing spiritual issues with others, even debating differences of opinions...but I guess when we start to feel an anger and bitterness towards the other person, we must stop and analyze our real motives! Are they for Christ and His message of grace, or are they for us and our "rightness" in winning an argument?
I don't think the message of the Cross, the gift of absolutely free grace, can be compromised; but it still needs to be given in a spirit of humility...with our confidence based solely on Christ.
Grace always,
Cindy |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:58 pm: | |
Jay,
I know the struggle only too well. In my limited experience, I've found myself really upset with those that wouldn't listen to what 'I' thought is essential. I pray for the Lord help me in this matter and the Lord hears my prayers. I've discovered that many times I wanted to say something that 'to me' was most essential, but rather than doing that knowing it would run them off, I remained silent for that time.
Other times I get all caught up in 'what is Truth' and find myself not being as patient as I'd like to be. It's getting better and better though. Through practice is the way I seem to be learning.
God Bless you,
Denise |
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