|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 4:05 pm: || |
"A time of trouble such as never was..." The trials of the tribulation are from the outpouring of God's wrath, not a time of persecution (although there will be persecution). Approximately 2/3 to 3/4 of the earth will be killed or destroyed. I believe the bible when it says, "We are not appointed to wrath." The more I study, the more I believe that a pre-trib rapture is coming, but if not, I am ready for plan B.
In terms of another great disappointment? I disagree. If the exact signs of the tribulation manifest themselves and there is no rapture--then we know it's a mid/post trib. Would I become so disappointed that it would shake my faith? No Way!
I would rejoice because I would know we were entering the final countdown. I would except God's promises of protection at face value--real faith eliminates fear. No mater what God has in store, we can face anything with His help, even plan B.
I just wouldn't mind going home sooner than later--I am tired of the daily battle, the grind, the politics, the arguments, the hassles, the falling in sin even when I don't want to, the death, the destruction, the disappointment in daily life...
I like what Billy Crystal says to Meg Ryan in the end of "When Harry Met Sally"--"When you've made the decision to spend the rest of your life with someone, you want the rest of your life to begin a soon as possible."
If we are called home at a pre-trib rapture, Amen. If I get to see my grandchildren and fellowship with as many people as I can before I die and go home--Amen. If, I am called to go through the tribulation so I can watch with my own eyes the last days of earth's sinful era, Amen (think about the stories you could tell on that one a couple million years from now). No matter what, I--we all are going home.
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 6:09 pm: || |
You're right there Doug! What interests me is the idea of a millenium here on Earth. I had never seen the truth of this idea until I tangled with another ex-SDA on another forum. Take a hard look at this text in Rev. 20:3
'And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.'
Now, who is him? Satan
What is the bottomless pit? It's NOT the earth! Check your crossreferences for other verses about this pit. The lowdown is that this pit has been in existence since at least the time of the Patriarchs and is a place of terror for fallen angels.
Why is Satan chained in there? So he cannot deceive the nations! The nations therefore CANNOT be all destroyed at the second coming. There are still people, and nations existing on the earth during this millenium.
I just don't see any other way to read this verse...do you?
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 6:32 pm: || |
Yes I do. But more later.
I think that is a healthy outlook.
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 9:05 pm: || |
I agree with you completely--I believe the millennium happens on earth and fulfills the OT prophecies.
This leads to some brand new ideas (for me at least). If this 1000 years (kingdom age) is on earth, then it's still not over. We may be ruling and judging with Christ, but the bible says there will be people who are born during this time. (Who are the parents?) These new people will have to make a personal decision for Christ. Lifespan will be greatly increased. Those who chose poorly will die at 100 and be considered just mere children. Isaiah 65:17+
We go through this whole kingdom age, rebuild the planet, raise up nations and then Satan is loosed and he deceives the masses--again. (What is with this guy, and what nations does he deceive?? --Must be the descendents of those born during this period?) They form a new army and charge the City. Then the fire comes down and we have the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet have been for 1000 years (so much for annihilation theory). Finally all the bad dead people are raised (2nd resurrection) we have the great throne judgement and then the new earth, etc.
It's completely different from what we have been taught that at first it really blew me away, but there it is, black and white in the bible and now that I've studied it--it all fits together.
I also understand thereís multiple views of the millennium just like the tribulation. Pre-millennial (along the lines of the above scenario); Post-millennial (my understanding is this view states the millennium is occurring now, and ends with the church age when Christ comes); and Amillennial (totally symbolic).
So I guess thereís multiple options (3x3 matrix = 27 options) to pick fromóPre-trib + Pre-mill; or Post-trib + Pre-mill; or Post-trib + Post-mill; etc etc etc. (anybody else have any input??)
I guess I am pre-trib and pre-mill. I know the pre-trib position is somewhat controversial, but I think the pre-mill concept looks pretty solid. No matter how you slice and dice this, none of it even comes close to the Adventist eschatologyóso lots more studying, lots more praying and lots more fun! Isnít great that salvation is so pure and simple??
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 9:10 pm: || |
What really was an eye-opener today was realizing that the texts before Satan being bound are about the beast and false prophet being thrown in the lake of fire, and then after the 1,000 years, there is the judgment and Satan is thrown in the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are....not were...burned up annihilated, but are...after the 1,000 years. I never heard such a beautiful message of grace and showing what hell is before in my life but when I went to church today I was blown away. Wow! Wish you all could have been there. I just love my new church family and pastor.
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 9:26 pm: || |
I just wanted to comment on Sherri's point
about the pre-tribbers setting themselves up
for another "Great Disappointment" if the
rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation.
This is a common concern about the pre-trib
view, but I don't think people who believe in a
pre-trib rapture are looking for an easy way out
and are not true followers of Christ.
Can you imagine someone who's a true
believer, anxiously awaiting the Lord's coming
for His church and sharing the gospel
witnessing events that signal the beginning of
the tribulation suddenly saying, "Well, that's it
for me then. I'm turning my back on Christ. He
didn't rapture us before all this started, so now
I won't follow Him anymore"?
Hardly. I believe they'll know that we are in the
tribulation, and continue to put their faith in
Christ like always.
I read a post by a pre-trib believer on another
website recently who, when he first accepted
Christ and studied Revelation, read where the
martyrs would be beheaded during the
tribulation (Revelation 20:4). He considered it
an honor that he might suffer for his belief in
Christ and become a martyr.
Then he studied some more and came to a
belief in the pre-tribulation rapture. Although
he believes that Christ will rapture His church
before the tribulation, he's more than willing to
follow through on his "Plan B" (i.e. beheading)
if that's how things turn out!
I don't think I've come across a pre-trib
believer yet who's said their faith would be
shaken if they found themselves in the
tribulation. I also think that a strong belief in
the IMMINENT return of Christ encourages
more evangelising and an urgency to spread
the gospel NOW.
If we knew we'd have a 7-year tribulation
period before the 2nd coming, we could just
wait until then to accept Christ or bring others
to him. We'd be more complacent and think,
"Well, when the anti-Christ comes and signs
that treaty with Israel, then I'll believe and get
serious about following Christ."
Belief in His imminent return makes the most
sense to me, too, but if not, then I guess I'll be
ready for "Plan B."
In His grace,
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 9:27 pm: || |
Oops--not 27 options, 9 options. Sorry. Still leads to lots of prayer, lots of studying and lots of fun!
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 9:35 pm: || |
Could it be that we are putting to much physical reality to Revelation?
Just personally, I figure there is so much wonderful stuff being un-covered in Matthew thru Jude that I just haven't even considered Revelation!
Anybody else feel that way? I KNOW that I am ready and I have a promise that is something to the effect that "His grace is sufficient for me."
What ever happens in the "end times", I figure started with Christ's FINISHED WORK. So Christians have been "tribulating" for 2000 years I figure.
One way or another, God has taken care of His own. I only went on this line of thought because I'm sure there are some out there that are like me and are NOT ready to tackle Revelation. So, you have company;-))
Those of you that CAN tackle Revelation; go for it! ;-)) My hat's off to you and I enjoy reading what you guys are tackling.
Well, actually, Mom keeps hammering me with Revelation....Grrrrrrrrrrr!;-((
Matthew thru Jude = 1+1 :=))
Revelation = Calculus :=((
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 10:38 pm: || |
Wow! I'm truly enjoying this very animated discussion!
Along with the ideas already presented discussing the notion that people could begin a "count-down" with the signing of the 7-year treaty with Israel -- and thus nulifying the "Thief-in-the-night" approach Jesus promised to take,etc. -- I also see some other elements that might be worth considering.
Now mind you, this is just an observation on my part -- not sound hermeneutics. But, does anyone else see a pattern in the events of history suggesting that God likes to remove his children from those situations where HE is judging -- pouring out HIS wrath? For example, when He sent a flood, He also provided a way for all of those who were loyal to Him to ESCAPE the horrors of that destruction -- The Ark.
When He visited Sodom because of it's heinous ways, not only did He promise Abraham that He would SPARE the wicked city if there were but ten righteous, but not finding those ten, He RESCUED Lot and his daughters from the punishment of that city. (And just how righteous were those three, just a short while later in that cave??? Obviously, even they were counted righteous by their RELATIONSHIP, not their behaviour.)
When Jerusalem was crushed by Rome, as predicted by Jesus, were not those whom had listened to Christ's warning given an opportunity to ESCAPE that judgement? Luke 21:20-22
20 ìWhen you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written."
It is certainly clear that the coming Tribulation is GOD'S wrath and judgement -- not just other Christians persecuting the 'poor little camp of Adventists', as I used to believe. I think God sees fit to allow us to face Satan's wrath -- and expects us to trust Him to see us through it. But, I cannot think of any instance where God caused those who loved Him and were loyal to Him to face Heavenly punishment.
This is supposition, but I think it fits well with some of the good Scriptural evidence offered by some of the rest of you. Yet, as others have stated, surely we can trust Him enough to guide us Home -- however He chooses to do it! I'm so glad I don't have to 'get through on my own', as I once thought! Rom 14:4 "...To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."
God bless you all -- it's so refreshing to see so many folks really seeking God's best.
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 11:04 pm: || |
Doug and Loneviking, I began to see what you are talking about one day in SS class when I was asked to read Isaiah 66:23 which is the classic verse used to prove the eternal existance of the Sabbath. As I waited my time I glanced to the 'before and after' of that verse and saw in verse 24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
This meant, to me, that either verse 23 was not speaking of either Heaven or the New Earth or there would be death there. After seeing that, I was able to begin to perceive that there might be something more to the 1000 year period than what I had previously believed. The beast and false prophet still existant in the LOF 1000 years later added to that...then I began to see when it was that the lamb and the lion would lie down together....and I believe, Loneviking, that it was the same 'former' who also showed me some things I had never seen before. Praise be to God for this God fearing person.
Jesus Is Enough
|Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 11:10 pm: || |
Dennis--I loved your post. There are many references to God removing His own in times of HIS judgement. There are even parallels to the number 7. Consider: Seven-year tribulation / Raptured church in heaven. Seven days Noah was in the Ark before the rain. Or the seven days Israel marched around Jericho before the final judgement...
A thought on the ìthief in the nightî issue. Even if you except the 7-year trib countdown as a ultimate universal egg timer, remember that those days will be shortened because no flesh would be saved (Matt 24:22). So even with the 7-year trib clock in motion, we know neither the day nor the hour when God could step in: 6 yrs? 6.2 yrs? 6.8 yrs?
Thanks for your input everyone--this is a great discussion. I hope everyone's enjoying it--let's keep going!
|Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2000 - 5:34 pm: || |
Chyna, you said (WAY back, sorry I'm not online as much as I'd like to be lately):
"uh steve, did you mean to say something different than: Just Whordinary People?"
No, that's exactly what I meant to say. Those were Daily's words, exactly as printed in his handout for the Sabbath school class. My eyes almost bugged out of my head. But as I've gotten to know more of Daily, that's his style. Always provocative.