| Author |
Message |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 10:58 am: |     |
Madelia welcome you have a whole new set of friends here. It is always sad in some ways to see another person who has been damaged by the church but praise God you have seen the light. I would love to hear your story feel free to email me at tbawgus@hotmail.com. Well another family to pray for just know that you have support here there are some great people here. Love Terryk |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 11:14 am: | |
Jerry, I need you to talk to me. I am terribly upset. The Messianics sent me a rather long email, (they won't leave me alone) and it basically condems all modern Christianity and I am so upset and doubting. Basically they said the holy spirit would only continue to show truth to those who don't rebel from what he has already shown...we christians are disobedient. My comments are in black, hers blue.
Let me paste a portion.
The Brit Chadasha is abundantly clear that not everyone who calls on the name of Yahshua will be saved.
Fact 1: To ìbelieveî in Yahshua is not merely an intellectual exercise. Faith is a verb, an action word. Only in western gentile minds does the term faith merely mean a thought process.
Fact 2: Those who truly ìbelieveî in Yahshua are obedient to the laws of Yahshua which He gave us at Mt. Sinai and which He affirmed again during His earthly ministry. (Matthew 5:17-20).
Fact 3: Believers will distinguish fellow believers from wolves in sheepís clothing by their actions. (James) If they keep THE commandments, then there is truth and light in them, but if they do not they are LIARS and there is NO TRUTH in them. These are NOT new commandments, but rather commandments that have come from old and which were know to the Jews all their lives. (1 John 2:3-5) If you donít keep the commandments then you will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven, if you keep the commandments then you will be called great. (Matthew 5)
Fact 4: Saying that Paul spoke against keeping the Torah is to repeat the same slander that was used to try to discredit Paul in the eyes of the believers, (Acts 21;28) and the same slander that was used to bring Stephen before the religious court, at which time he was stoned.
(Acts 6)
Fact 5: If Yahshua spoke against obeying the Torah and the Prophets then He is the anti-Messiah, and we are all worshipping Him in vain.
Fact 6: If Paul taught that Messiah abolished the Torah and the Prophets then he is an agent of the anti-Messiah and his teachings should not be given any legitimacy. I, of course, do not believe that Paul ever speaks against Torah-observance itself, but he does speak against Torah-observance as a way to obtain salvation. Blood must be spilt in order for us to be saved, therefore bloodless ìworksî will never bring you salvation.
So isnít that taking the free gift of salvation given to us by God through his Son and putting it back on our shoulders? That is pure works.
Not at all. That is called fearing and honoring YHVH by being obedient. My children are obedient to my wishes, but no one accuses them of legalism or attempting to win my love by their works. It is understood that my children honor me by being obedient and someday when they too teach their children to obey, it will be an even greater honor that they have seen that my rules are just and loving. If you do as Yahshua asks then you are a ìdoerî as well as a ìhearerî and you honor Him with your actions as well as your thoughts. Obedience is honorable, attempting to be saved through obedience RATHER than by faith is vain and foolish.
I donít doubt that many SDAís have lost focus on the Messiah, most of Christianity has completely lost focus on the Messiah. However, most of Christianity doesnít necessarily focus on the 10 commandments all that much. So whether or not you attempt to be saved by keeping the commandments or you create your own god who allows you to do whatever you want as long as you consider it loving, it all takes you to the same place. Vain and foolish worship. These are the ditches on either side of the road and the blind (those who have no truth and light [1John 2:3-5]) will lead others who are also blind into these ditches.
The simple truth is that we will all be judged by our works when stand before the Messiah. And the laws of Moses are the standards by which we will be compared to.To reject the Torah means three things specifically in YHVHís eyes:
1) You have trampled Yahshua underfoot
2) You have considered the blood of the covenant a common or unimportant thing
3) You have insulted the Spirit of grace.
And we know that grieving the spirit is the only way that we can lose all hope of salvation. If you reject the sacrificial system then you reject Yahshua and the alter upon which He was offered and you reject His work in the heavenly sanctuary. You have considered it to be unimportant and no longer worthy of honor. When you reject the Torah and the Prophets then you are trampling Yahshua underfoot, because He is the Torah made flesh. He was the Word that existed before the earth and through Him and for Him all things were created. He is the one and only law-giver and the one and only redeemer.
And you insult the Spirit of grace because you slander the Ruach Hakodesh. The Spirit which leads us into all truths does not speak against the Most High YHVH. You have taken the gift of grace and used it to reject the sovereignty of Almighty YHVH. You have used a false teaching of grace and used it to justify outright disregard for YHVH and a disdain for His Word, Yahshua. You have become lawless and it would have been better for you had you never known the teachings of YHVH which you so carelessly disregarded.
The Law was done away with, nailed to the cross. (Check out Jeremiah 31:31ÖGod spoke of doing away with the Law 500 years before it happened at the cross.)
This is simply not true. Jeremiah 31:31,32 clearly tells us that the covenant that was made with Israel was a blood covenant because it was on the day that they left Egypt. It was another year before they received the Torah at Mt. Sinai. What Israel rejected was the betrothal sacrifice of the lamb. They rejected this lamb by being unfaithful to the Torah which was given to them at the wedding ceremony. When they rejected the Torah, they were in reality rejecting the bridegroom. And this still holds true today which is why the Brit Chadasha tells us that we trample Yahshua underfoot when we reject the Torah.
Jeremiah 31:31-33 is of a House of Israel and House of Judah who have the Torah written on their hearts and minds. And Jeremiah 31:34-40 is still yet to come, it remains unfulfilled until the millennial kingdom.
No where, does Jeremiah tell us that THE LAW means anything other than the Torah. It is clearly understood that the Law was Torah. Yet Christians claim to be under this new covenant, and yet they do not love and obey the Torah from their hearts. They despise and reject the Torah, they preach and teach lawlessness as a result of grace and because of this they insult the Spirit of grace.
I then referred her to Romans 7.
Again, this Scripture is being taken out of context in order to say something which directly contradicts Yahshua, the Old Testament, and Paulís other writings. When you are baptized you died to your sins and therefore they can no longer be held against you, the death penalty is not abolished, but it cannot be carried out because you are considered dead. This is a basic Torah teaching and also it is commonly understood in the judicial system of today. However, Paul is abundantly clear that Yahshua didnít die so that we may continue to sin. The irony is that without the existence of Torah, there can be no sinners.
However, once you are released from the death penalty you are now free to obey the Messiah and to walk as He walked, free from the penalty of death, you can walk in newness of life. Once you have removed the cloud of death from your soul, you are now free to embrace and love Yahshuaís truth (Torah) through the help of His Spirit walk as Yahshua walked. Christians claim that all things are possible through Yahshua, but then they claim that walking upright and blameless in His Torah is simply not possible. So which is it?
Once that blinder is off, scripture you have read for years suddenly becomes perfectly clear.
The Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) WILL NEVER lead you into ìtruthsî that contradict the written Word of YHVH. This is why the Torah has been used as the standard to test the claims of prophets, teachers and messiahís. If they speak against observing the Torah and the Prophets then we are to reject them as false, however if they uphold these truths AND what they say (if its prophetic) comes true, then we know they are sent from YHVH. The Brit Chadasha adds to this by stating that they must also acknowledge that Yahshua was YHVH in the flesh. This is why Revelations tells us that the remnant will be Torah-observant and believers in Yahshua.
The Holy Spirit gives us understanding.
The Ruach doles out understanding to us as we read and study the complete Word of YHVH. It is not a sudden transaction that is completed. It is a process. If you are faithful in what the Ruach reveals to you then you are given more truths and more understanding and this will continue as long as you are willing to go wherever the Ruach leads you. Once you begin to balk and rebel, then He will not attempt to lead you any further. The Ruach cannot abide in the midst of rebellion. But He will not forsake you, He is patient and will keep prodding you.
Yes, man-made yokes are bad and should be avoided. However, Yahshuaís yoke, the Torah, is not a bad or burdensome thing.
Then she concludes and this is what I find really disturbing. I am nearly ready to give up on everything I know, Jerry.
I was considering the Christian teaching that Yahshua completed all the things written of Him in the Torah and the Prophets and therefore nailed it to the stake when He died. And it struck me how ludicrous this idea is because, Yahshua has NOT fulfilled all that is prophesied of Him in the Torah and the Prophets. He did complete the suffering servant prophesies, but that is hardly what all of the prophesies are about. He has not fulfilled the last day prophesies found in the Torah in Deut. 30, nor has He fulfilled the prophesies of His return and millennial kingdom found in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Jeremiah etcÖ
The popular saying that He fulfilled the Torah and the Prophets and so this is why they were nailed to the cross is such a joke. Yahshua said that until ALL things were fulfilled not one yod (smallest Hebrew letter) or decoration of a Hebrew letter (the crowns or tongues of fire) would disappear from the Torah and the Prophets. Not until heaven and earth disappear would the Torah be abolished. Of course, we know this is because the Torah and the Prophets tell of the 1000 year millennial reign of the Messiah on this earth and then end with a New Jerusalem descending. At that point the earth is recreated, so they do literally disappear. Only when this happens will all things be fulfilled. Only at that time can the Torah and the Prophets be abolished.
The problem is you have a lot of Christians running around with popular rhetoric and very little Scriptural knowledge. Believe me, I know, I was there. I left the SDA church, I threw off the Sabbath and the kosher laws and I kicked up my feet and declared I was free at last! It felt great for a while. The glow of something new and popular, something that gave me a kind of acceptance by the larger Christian community that I had never experienced before when I would tell someone I was an SDA, it felt really nice. It was sort of like a big hippy love fest where we all proclaimed love and peace.
The problem was that the more I read the Brit Chadasha the more troubled I was by the multitude of texts that spoke of judgement and false teachings and being deceived. I was disturbed by references to lawlessness and that Yahshua said that not everyone who called on His name was saved, but that many were liars. I was disturbed by the idea that although I was now a part of the mainstream millions upon millions of Christians, the Bible didnít seem to indicate that I was in a very good position, because according to Scriptures the broad and easy road led to destruction but only a few would find the narrow gate. I began to ask too many questions again, and once again, I realized that mainstream Christianity didnít have a clue. I realized that I was in another SDA church situation where people taught things they didnít understand and accepted blatant contradictions.
For me, finding the Torah was a relief. It was like a drowning person, full of despair of ever finding drinkable water, even though I was drowning in tons of ìsaltyî water and then suddenly Iím washed up on a rock with a well of pure, sweet living water. I looked at the Torah and I saw Yahshua in a way I had never been introduced to Him before.
To be honest, I found modern Christianity after a time, to be disturbing. I saw that they were not different or separate from the world. They were not set apart and holy. Most people can hardly tell a born again Christian from a Buddhist or atheist. After all atheists believe in loving your fellow man, and Catholics, New Agers and Buddhist all teach love as a focal point of their doctrines. The problem lies in how each of these religions defines love. They basically donít define love in any real way. They each say that loving your fellow man means feeding them and clothing them and other vague ideas. But basically, you are the one who defines what love means to you. Your idea of love and my idea of love are not entirely the same thing. Just look at a marriage where two people are attempting to define love and carry it out in a way that satisfies just one other person, and then look at all of the divorces that result from people not getting the ìloveî they needed. Now times that scenario for millions upon millions of people and you have a real hodge podge of what love is and what love isnít. For example, if you tell a muslim that they need to believe in Yahshua for eternal life so that they can be saved, that might make them feel unkindly towards you and so they might accuse you of not being ìlovingî and call you a hypocrite. If you tell a Christian that they are disobeying YHVH when they promote and celebrate pagan holy days they often will accuse you of not being ìloving.î Because you see ìloveî has been defined in our society today as being ìacceptedî and not ìjudgmentalî of those around you. I tell my lesbian neighbor that she cannot enter into heaven while she is still embracing and living in rebellious sin, no matter how many times she calls on the name Jesus and says her rosary and lights her candles. And she considers me to be unkind, judgmental and unloving. Therefore she accuses me of breaking the law of Jesus, that says to love one anotherÖ
I got to the point of crying out to YHVH and saying how do I know that my definition of ìloveî is YOUR definition of love. How do I know that I am following the most important commandment of all, loving YHVH with all of my heart and soul when I am left with the burden of defining what YHVH meant by that. And then the next one was just as troublesome. How do I know that I am following the second commandment the way YHVH wants me to follow it, if I donít know what He means when He says to ìloveî my fellow man as myself. The sheer vagueness of these commandments drove me crazy, while so many other people seemed to love the lack of definition.
Here I was, saved and born again and Iím wanting to please YHVH and show Him how much I love Him by obeying His commandments to love and yet the more I try to nail down what EXACTLY YHVH wants of me, the more I am bogged down with a hundred different and often contradictory ìopinionsî of what that love is from the saved, born-again Christians around me. I realized that they didnít know any more than I did. And then I realized that most of them didnít really care. They were saved and going to heaven, ìAMEN! Pass the ham please.î
I spent hours listening to the same kinds of sermons and teachings that you have been sending me and I read voraciously anything written about the topic of loving of YHVH.
But ALL of it was based on the desires of the people, not the desires of YHVH. The comments and ideas I received were obviously self-centered and reflected manís decision of what they were willing to give to YHVH, rather than seeking what He desired for them to give. Often times, the answers reflected an attitude of doing the very minimum to please YHVH and anything that required sacrifice was naturally unnecessary. So basically, I was getting the idea that Christians believed that if they called on the name of Jesus that they were automatically saved and that from that point forward, they defined what it meant to love YHVH and to love those around them and that usually their definitions resulted in them leading virtually the same self-centered lifestyle that they were leading before they became ìsaved.î No wonder you canít distinguish Christians from atheists half the time!
When I found the Torah, I was shocked to discover that YHVH hadnít left me hanging in some in some vague nebulous world of where I twitched on the end of a rope, hoping that my definitions of love were correct and that hopefully I was pleasing Him. When I found the Torah, I found the instruction manual, the road map of how to live a covenant life. I found a Father who was specific in His desires and who loved to explain to me in great detail what was right and good in His eyes. And I felt more loved and more loving than I had ever felt before. I felt like my little boy , who was struggling to walk and yet he was always groping around for a hand to help support him. It was like I had finally caught His hand and I could put my thumb in my mouth and let Him lead me around and I didnít have to worry about stumbling and skinning my knees anymore.
Now, I realize that the Torah is the gift of a loving Father to His precious child. I tell my son Cameron all the time that I want him to grow up to be a good young man. But if I never define for him what a good young man is, then he would never know if he was making me proud.
I just think that when we lean on our own understanding, and when we define what is good in our own eyes, we are going to come away with a very skewed view that is fatally flawed by our own sinful biases. Its only when we let YHVH define what loving Him and loving our fellow man means, that we can get a true picture of ourselves. Yahshua tells us that the two greatest commandments are the foundation for the Torah. He doesnít tell us that they replace the Torah (that would make Him the anti-Messiah and also contradict Matthew 5) but rather that they embody the Torah.
Well did Yahshua say that in the last days people would not stand sound doctrine and that they would call that which is good (Torah, for example) evil and that which is evil (lawlessness) good. And Revelation 22 tells us that those who love a lie will not enter into the New Jerusalem.
Basically I have been told that I have misinterpreted every scripture I have ever sent to them. And that I love a lie and won't enter heaven. |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
Welcome Madelia!
"They're not Adventist" is a very common statement with the Adventists. A common question is "Are they Adventist?" Then there's "not really Adventist", "not committed Adventists", "Meat eating Adventists" GASP!, "Married to an Adventist"...you get the point.
When I was about 15 I told my mom, "Everybody doesn't have to be Adventist!!!" She said in a shocking voice, "They don't!?"
Basically, if you aint Adventist, to an Adventist you aint Jack.
Hi, I'm Sabra and I'm a former Adventist.....
....and the formers chime, "Hi Sabra"
Greetings!! We're glad to have you Madelia! |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
Pheeki,
I implore you. Please, please, please, stop corresponding with these people. Block their e-mail. Delete anything you receive without reading it.
They are not working to your best interest. They are preaching a ìdifferent Gospelî
First they start with
Quote:Matthew 5:17-20
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Now, let us think about this. What they refuse to understand is that this one section of the sermon does not tell the whole story. They are saying that you must keep every little rule and regulation set down in the Torah. That is, every feast day, every animal sacrifice, every law, every curse and death for breaking each law and regulation, every ablution, taboo, prohibition, manner of dress, priesthood, ritual, I mean everything in the Old Testament.
That is exactly what Jesus is saying,
EXCEPT . . . There is one phrase they conveniently ignore ì. . . till all be fulfilled.î
AND . . . they are ignoring all of the changes Jesus makes to each ìlawî he mentions. Everything Jesus says is MORE difficult, and MORE demanding that the Torah EVER WAS.
AND . . . they are forgetting the conclusion of the sermon:
Quote:Matthew 11: 25-30
[25] At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
[26] Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
[27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Almost the ENTIRE SERMON talks about grueling, exacting, nit-picking, impossible requirements.
AND YET . . . ìmy yoke is easy, and my burden is light.î
So here is the BIG QUESTION: Is it all ìfulfilledî or is it not?
If not, I doubt that even their most celebrated, pious, observant members come close to meeting half the requirements Jesus listed. AND THEY ABSOLUTELY MUST MEET EVERY SINGLE LITTLE TEENY TINY REQUIREMENT . . . OR ELSE!!!!! One slip, no appeal, YOU ARE OUT OF HEAVEN!
Now, HOW IS THAT YOKE EASY? HOW IS THAT BURDEN LIGHT?
So, what is the point? Why bother? We are doomed. We cannot do it.
Paul asks and answers that very question:
Quote:Romans 8:24,25
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
and further:
Quote:Romans 9:1-4
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Did you see that? ì . . . NO CONDEMNATION!!!î
They misquote 1 John 2:3-5
Because the ìold commandmentî to which John refers is NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. We know this, because he tells us in the very next chapter:
Quote:1 John 3:11
[11] For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Now this person does not speak out of love, but out of conquest and power.
She has NO RIGHT TO JUDGE YOU, Jesus (Yahshua) told us we MUST NOT DO THAT!!! Does she forget THAT INSTRUCTION?
Do not judge her, but remove her from your life. She is no help to you, she is a stumbling block. |
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 12:22 pm: | |
Pheeke,
Legalists love to be the authority by which all others belief is judged. You are not wrong and your faith is well grounded. Keep your eyes on Jesus and ONLY Jesus. Read I John 5:13 until it becomes burned on the back of your eyelids! Never allow this woman or anyone else to complicate and take away what Jesus died to give you. As Paul said, if we could be saved by keeping the Law, then Jesus died for nothing. And those who seek to be saved by keeping the Law have fallen from Grace and are "Severed" from Christ.
Never stop trusting and following Jesus. Never take your eyes from the cross. and one more thing.
If his lady keeps bombing you with email, block their address in your server. Dont argue with them. Remember Paul's advice to Titus in Chapter 3
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.
You are in HIS Grace!
<>< Thomas |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 1:50 pm: | |
Pheeki, here's another scripture that legalists never notice: Luke 16:16 "the law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it." Hm, sure does sound like he is saying that something changed with the coming of John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness doesn't it? |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 3:18 pm: | |
Pheeki, I third the motion that you stop your correspondence with these people. they are preaching another gospel!
The question of the law and the prophets not being abolished until heaven and earth passed away used to trouble me, also, even after I understood that all of my salvation was fulfilled on the cross. I have finally realized something:
While the law was nailed to the cross (Colossians 2) for Christ-followers, the actual law (Torah) and the prophets (the entire Old Testament) still exist. They exist for two reasons: 1) They still convict people of sin and the curse of death, and they still make people so aware of their inability to be righteous that they lead people to God. 2) They are the absolute proof that Jesus is who he said he was. All the sacrifices and ceremonies and feast days pointed to him--even the temple service and the priesthood pointed to him--and by studying the Torah along with the prophecies of Jesus, we find that he indeed perfectly fulfilled the law.
Until the New Earth, when sin is destroyed and we live eternally in the presence of God, we will need the Old Testament to confirm the New. The New explains the Old, and the Old confirms the new. Of course not one jot or tittle will disappear until heaven and earth disappear! As long as we are mortal, humanity will need the evidence that Jesus is who he IS! And as long as we are mortal, sinners will need the conviction of the death sentence contained in the law to lead them to Christ.
If you were born in Brazil but moved to the USA, the Brazillian law would still exist and still have authority over Brazillians. But if you become a US citizen, US law has authority over you, not Brazillian law. Even though it still exists for Brazillians, it no longer exists for you! Just so when you become a citizen of the kingdom of God. The Holy Spirit has authority over and in you; the law no longer has authority over you.
that doesn't mean we preach the law to sinners; we preach Jesus. But the law still continas the truth of the curse of sin. That curse remains until we accept Jesus.
I hope this helps. It certainly helped me when I realized this!
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 4:18 pm: | |
I second, I mean 4th that.
I ran across one Messianic like this and I had to tell her we could agree to disagree and let it go. |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 4:20 pm: | |
To be fair, they are all different. I have some I talk to at dokimos.org that say a person can go to church on Tuesday or any day, that Jesus is the Sabbath and we are free in Him. Send her to that site and let her debate with them a while. |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 4:59 pm: | |
Pheeki,
I pray that this attack from Satan will cease. I know that everyone here will agree that this evil must be bound with our fervent prayers. I will echo what Jerry just posted: please, please, block that e-mail. I was in tears by the time I was half-way through that long list of nonsense, it truly grieved my soul. I have copied and pasted your post in Word and was going through it in when I just nearly got sick to my stomach at all the twisted lies and double-talk that was mentioned.
I truly believe that this group of people is far, far more notorious than EGW ever dreamed of being during her lifetime. I guess that is what is meant by knowledge increasing toward the end of the age. This computer is a mixed blessing, it is wonderful to praise God with fellow believers especially those who lived a "religious" life like the Sadduccees and Pharisses and are now delivered from the lies of the cults, and I am in awe of all the study aids at our "instant" disposal but, at the same time, this computer can open up such wounds and pour salt on them instead of receiving healing, can't it?
I will send you what I worked on in an e-mail if you want my thoughts, along with scripture, about all the different lies and heresies that were thrown your way by that group of nuts who have just done the same thing that the SDAs, JWs, and Mormons have done, they have their own little Bible of sorts and think that everyone else is lost and going to hell.
My e-mail address is cjlump@bellsouth.net if you want the input, I didn't feel right about such a long post in the forum. It sounds like something that should be made into a group discussion but only after it has been broken down into parts. It was just too much to absorb at once but I will send you what I have worked on so far if you want it. To be honest, it reminded me of some of the loonnng letters that transpired between my sister and me before I was blocked from sending her the truth. To block e-mail from a pack of lies is another story,
Remember,don't give the devil an inch or he will be your ruler!!!
You need to ask God to help you to retain all those wonderful scripture verses that he has placed in your heart. Hold dear to the truths that he has revealed to you, but don't allow yourself to be overwhelmed, please, that only leads to a fear that leads to other bad things. Instead, remember that the word says that we are to put on the "whole" armour of God and remember "resist the devil and HE will flee from THEE" just stand your ground and know that when you get this much static, you have surely struck a nerve and God is watching over you and will protect you from the enemy.
I hope that all that I have written to you isn't as equally overwhelming as what you have been reading. God is not the author of confusion, this is clearly another tactic of Satan sent to deceive you and grieve your Spirit.
God bless and keep you in his grace, it is sufficient for every battle. AMEN
Janice |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
I can't thank all of you enough for the overwhelming response! I spent most of the day crying and I feel like it was a waste of a day. I have email'd her to tell her that we cannot find common ground and are going in circles. I also told her that what she is saying greatly upset me. I too felt nauseated...this cannot be from God. It must be the Holy Spirit recoiling in us!
I am sorry I exposed all of you to it, but I have no one else to run this by. Something Jerry said really struck me..."Now this person does not speak out of love, but out of conquest and power."
If you knew this girl's personality, you would know you have hit it right on the head. I think she has a definite pride issue going, probably left over from her SDA upbringing. Her husband apologized to me and told me that he would not have used the approach she did...but thank God she did! Can you imagine if they would have soft sold me on it!
These people have lost almost every friend they have ever had. They have grieved their relatives (her sister-in-law is my high school best friend) by not coming to family gatherings that celebrate pagan holidays such as Christmas, also refusing to accept gifts on their boys behalf.
Refusing to attend a birthday party for a long lost nephew b/c it was on the Sabbath. (Forget they haven't seen him in 2 years...it was more important to keep the Sabbath than to do good by visiting him and making him feel loved.)
You guys also came up with some excellant scripture. This one especially stuck out...
Luke 16:16 "the law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it." I love it!
These are not true Messianics, I pulled some stuff of a website that I pasted here that was a rabbi who preached the New Covenant and it was excellant.
These people had been bugging my friend to give them my email...she wouldn't do it for months b/c she knew I was a baby saved Christian...I see she was wise. I get so angry every time they say Jesus was crucified on a stake instead of our most beloved symbol, the cross.
Guys, you might have noticed Muddywaters posted something. She is a childhood friend of mine, now pretty much a former SDA...she is hurting too, many years of SDA prejudice, abuse. Please greet her. I had been hoping she would post for a long time.
And all my love goes out to you, my friends in Christ. Thank-you for caring enough to post! God bless him, even my husband felt sorry for me. He has met this person in the past and she argued with him for hours over EGW and she was very prideful.
Oh! One last thing, I told them they had misdirected zeal! (Paul used that to describe the Law-keepers, hope it sunk in.) |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
A Jewel
The bright spot of the day (actually besides your caring posts) came from my dear, newly saved Mother! Just let me say praise God for the true Gospel presented clearly!
Anyway, I told her how I had been crying most of the day (I might as well admit now part of it was PMS) because of the Judaizers. She said, "I've got just the thing for you, I just read it!" She read to me out of Romans while I was driving.
You have to understand this is a woman who was so hurting in her own life that she has been able to offer me little comfort, ever. Yet, she is a testimony of a changed life. Did the Law ever do that for anyone? No. But the true picture of Christ did, the blinders are off my mother. Praise God. She also advised me not to communicate with them any further. She read to me Romans 16:17 (bear in mind my mother has never read me a text before...she read...)
" I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the treaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own appetites." How appropriate. Thanks Jesus for speaking through my Mom! What a blessing. |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 7:01 pm: | |
Dear sister Pheeki honey you have enough guilt and junk from your own family you sure do not need these people in your life. This is a long and crazy process being deculted but some day you will look back and think how could I have ever believed that junk. It takes awhile and it is even harder because you are still in the midst of SDAism so please do not add to the trouble steer clear of these weirdos too. Love your sister Terry |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 11:58 pm: | |
Praise God for your mom, Pheeki! And praise him that he comforted you today.
Colleen |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 7:51 am: | |
Pheeki,
I am so happy for your mom. I was in tears as I read that the first time she shared scripture with you and then the one it was just blew me away. God is so wonderful.
Again I will say you are so precious to me and if precious to me, who only knows you thru this post, how much more precious are you to God who knows every hair on your head.
I have no doubt that He is able and will carry your thru whatever is ahead.
Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
Like I said to Muddywaters keep on looking to the positive scripture such as 1 John 4:10 and believe it and then look at it as a parent and see if you in fact would ever stop loving your child and know that God's love for us is magnified. I haven't got any idea how many more times.
Praying and thanking God for you and your Mom, Carol |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 8:19 am: | |
Janice, Please send me whatever you have come up with in answer to the Judaizers to my email. (removed at Pheeki's request). |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 11:28 am: | |
Pheeki
Just a question about this long post from the messianic Jews before I forget.
Where does it tell us in the Bible to read the Brit Chadasha or whatever it is. And you need to ask yourselve and God to show you what the Brit Chadasha is and if you actully need it, then whould he please show it to you and explain what it all means. If you do not get any answer then let it go. No one can teach you except the one that you have already learned from. I do not know your testimony of why you came out but I can see that you are not just jumping at something because it sounds good or someone told you something that you felt knew what they were talking about. I see that you yourselve found some things out and you yourselve have listened to the HS to guide you. That is what being one in the spirit does. It matches us up with people just like we have been and then togehter we agree on things before we even discuss them.
I want you to look really close at the posts from many of us. We do not tell you what to do we only encourage you in what you have already done. That my dear precious one is the Holy Spirit. I say that because I in no way could have planned what is happening here between you and me and others on this post. It has happened because you and I and others had a need and we came together to glorify God by sharing what has happened in our lives. Thru that we have been able to see the HS working. We share scripture with you but it is to lift you up not to bring you down. That is what The God that I worship does and again I will say just like my Abba Father daddy. Why does He do it because just like my daddy He Loves Me and He wants that none should perish 2Pe.3 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
so He made a way just like a daddy would for a child that is floundering. And when that child comes back just like the prodigal son there will be a party of all parties. He will not say well now let's see what are you going to do about those things you did to me, no just the opposite He will say WELCOME HOME.
Love to you because God placed you in my life, Carol |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 11:50 am: | |
Pheeki,
So you love a lie and will not enter heaven. According to scripture can that be said by another human on the face of this earth?
God has been working overtime to bring scripture to me so that I would have an answer when the time presented. After 6 months, or maybe even less, I was certain of what the Lord had revealed to me thru my experiences and the Word now that I in fact did have the truth. As the years went on I did not understand why I kept finding out new things as I studied the word and why He kept taking me back to the same things and sometimes I would get a new light on the same scripture and now I understand that He wanted me to be so entrenched in understanding His Word that I would not wonder and I would be able to show in the Word what I in fact believe beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is scripture that will dispell the fact that a person on this earth can tell you if you will go to Heaven or not and that is 2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Don't listen to anyone who feels they have the right to tell you that you will not go to heaven. There is only one person who has that capability and I dare say it is not the person with whom you are speaking with from the messianic Jew.
I can fully appreciate your wanting to discuss and make your husband understand but beyond that you have enough on your plate, so like many others have said if I were you I would just give it up to God and tell her so and if she continues tell her you have more important things to do and one of them is to read your Bible and let the spirt of God guide you.
May you thru your boldness teach "her", Carol |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
Pheeki,
Sorry for all these posts but I just went up to do some things for my S.S. class tomorrow and thought of something I should have told you and then I heard my computer playing a screen saver(which is a whole another story of how it got on my computer, my kids just laugh and say ya Mom's computer is doing it's thing again, anyway I'll tell you about it some day when we have nothing else to talk about, and when that will be God only knows) so since I had to go down anyway and turn it off just wanted to tell you: Be very thankful you have your Mom to talk to about some of these issues and together you and she can both learn in such a glorious way. Been there done it and it continues to happen with my daughter. Wonderful feeling and I think God thru all the prayers for you knew that you needed someone to help you thru and by that I mean some warm body not just these words written on this machine. Oh what a marvelous day we live in, I would have never guessed in a million years I would be doing this, I love it. I love it more than anything because I am a communicator and I love the Lord and love to communicate that.
Enough for today since I will be going to a 50th birthday party for my brother tonight and he is also retiring from the fire department. My little brother retired and I still have to work, it's not fair but not much in this life is. I love him in spite of it.
Talk to you all Sunday unless the Lord comes before and then if He does what a day that will be when His face we all shall see. Love you all,because of Christ, Carol |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 12:58 pm: | |
Thanks Carol for thinking about me so much. I went to the SDA church today and was so moved by the music (apparantly we may be the only SDA church with drums in Texas...thats the rumor anyway) tears were streaming down my face! So they called for the garden of prayer where you go down and kneel at the alter (sortof Catholic, huh?) and pray...I was feeling most spiritual and then...something always happens to bring me back down to earth...
The prayer was all about how much we love the Law. He droned on and on about the Law. I just froze and wished I hadn't went down there! It made me furious. then I felt guilty for feeling furious over this but not one person in there understands the Law!
And then it bugs me that they always beg the HS to fill them...now, correct me if I am wrong but...since we passed from death to life in baptism and are sealed with the Holy Spirit...don't we already have this?
It is just subtle things that bug me! |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 1:35 pm: | |
Pheeki,
I understand your anger, but consider the following passage found in Romans 11. When I get the chance, I'll share an amazing revelation that God game me about my "anger" toward the Adventist Church:
Quote:Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
God Bless.
In His Grace
Doug |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 4:33 pm: | |
Pheeki, on Saturday mornings I pray for you as you go to church with your family. Praise God that you were able to worship during the singing! And praise God also for the jolt back into reality. When Richard and I were in the process of leaving, I realized that during the time we were studying and making decisions, God had work for us to do in the Adventist church. When he clearly beckoned us to leave, we had to follow or risk losing God's ability to use us as he wanted to use us.
Until you know God is asking you to stop going to church with your husband, He will use you with the people with whom you associate there. You may never know exactly what or how he used you, but you can know he will and is using you. Your husband and children, for sure, are some of those to whom God is ministering through you.
When God clearly leads you to stay away, then you must obey him. He will make that time clear as you submit the issue to him. In the meantime, praise God that he gave you a time of true worship while also clearly reminding you not to be deceived; Adventism is not truth. But God will meet people who want to know him wherever they are, and he undoubtedly met more than you only during worship yesterday.
Praise God for his sovereignty and for the way he uses even evil people and institutions for his purposes, as Carol pointed out on another thread!
Colleen |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 9:00 am: | |
well, in church on Sat. my husband and the music director were talking...we are surprised we are getting away with having a full band in church, drums, base, etc. The music director said, "If they make us take it out, I am leaving." My husband said "I will too." I said, "you know, my husband and his brother in Calif. have thought about starting their own church." The music director said, "I have thought of that too."
My husband said, "We could be non-denom." My jaw almost hit the floor. EGADS! Did he just say that? |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 9:14 am: | |
Maybe we should start praying they complain about your music. Well these are great things to hear its a shame that is not about the teaching of
Christ or there lack of teaching but they will leave about the music. I guess you will take anything at this time though. We still are all praying for you. |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 10:59 am: | |
Terry, My sentiments to Pheeki exactly! Pheeki, this could be the door that God opens for you to establish some scriptural truths. Maybe you could print out that booklet on How To Recognize A Good Church as a general outline on how to go about establishing your own church. Wouldn't that be great? www.rbc.org is the web site in case you lost it, just go to the discovery series listings and key in the topic and you can get the entire booklet from there.
God bless and let's pray for this miracle to happen, he is still in business providing for us everyday.
Janice |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 1:59 pm: | |
Pheeki,
Praise God His wonders to preform. Non-denom, WOW. Coming from a dyed in the wool SDA I'd say there's reason to Celebrate.
PRAY,PRAY,PRAY and then believe the answer is on the way. Carol |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 9:02 pm: | |
How exciting, Pheeki! God is working! We'll keep praying.
Colleen |
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