| Author |
Message |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 10:16 am: |     |
I cut and pasted Questions for Sabbath keepers from a website (giving the guy who compiled them credit)and someone actually took the time to answer them. Now I have to rebut and I don't think I have time to do it all. Does anyone feel like helping me? Jerry? Melissa? Doug? Anyone?
I recall seeing this one earlier, from a website.
Most of the points are quite silly, too.
Nevertheless, here goes:
1."...If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath. Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?..."
You can find God Himself "shabathing" in Genesis 2. It is the same word translated in many places as "kept the sabbath" or "keeping the sabbath". If I can ever find an internet-based Englishman's concordance, I will repost the specific verses, if you have one, I believe it is Strong's number 7793.
2. "...Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about he Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Gen 14:20, Circumcision: Gen 17:10, Marriage: Gen 2:24 & Gen 34 . Why would God leave out the "all important" Sabbath command?..."
You will notice that there is also no explicit command to not commit idolatry. They had the law, but no explicit mentioning of it. Nevertheless, note the commandment in Exodus 20:8-11, specifically the word "Remember". How can you remember something you never knew? Plainly, the specific day was not an issue back then.
3. "...If the fact that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone proves they are forever, then whatever happened to the two stone tablets that God gave Adam at the beginning of time? Why is Moses the first one to see a stone tablet written by the finger of God?..."
God didn't have to give Adam tablets, recall He said "he has become like us, knowing good and evil". The laws Adam was to live by were known.
4. "...Why is the weekly Sabbath commandment never quoted in the New Testament?..."
It is, Luke 23:56 - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
(Note: That is after the death of Christ.)
Also Hebrews 4:11 - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (read the entire chapter, it is obscenely plain)
5. "...Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?..."
There are two verses speaking of this:
Exodus 31:13 - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Leviticus 23:31 - Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
The first one is nice enough, the Sabbath is the only sign mentioned in the bible that God sanctifies us. A good reason to get rid of it, no?
The second one plainly refers to a ceremonial sabbath (not the weekly one) that is to occur on the ninth day of the month (verse 32)
6. Why is there no example of exclusively Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church or prayer meeting after the resurrection of Christ?
There are several, for convenience I have copied them below:
Acts 13:14 - But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Acts 13:42 - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Acts 13:44 - And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Acts 16:13 - And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Acts 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 18:4 - And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
7. "...Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy?..."
Read Hebrews chapter 4
8. "...While Paul taught in the synagogues up to 84 times, why does the Bible never say he kept the sabbath?..."
Be wary of equating church attendance with sabbathkeeping. They are not equivalent. Nevertheless, where does it explicitly say he kept Sunday?
9. "...If Paulís action of preaching to non-believers 84 times in the book of Acts on the Sabbath make him a Sabbath keeper, is a Seventh-day Adventist pastor a Sunday keeper if we invite him for 84 Sundays in a row to teach us about Godís word?..."
See above, church attendance != sabbathkeeping.
10. "...How could Adam, Noah and Abraham keep the Sabbath, when Deuteronomy 5:2-4 says that the 10 commandment covenant (see was "not made with any of the fathers of Israel who lived before Moses."..."
Even better, how did they know that certain things were sin? Genesis 4 , Genesis 13:13, Genesis 18:20, Genesis 20:6, Genesis 20 , Genesis 31:36, Genesis 39 , Genesis 42:22, and Genesis 50:17
11. "...If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath, then why do Sabbatarians not follow the example of Jesus in circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?..."
This question was likely formed for spite. What do you think? Is Jesus the Paschal lamb? As for circumsicion, some things were made solely for the Jews, and you know it.
12. "...If the Sabbath was for Gentiles and Adam, Noah and Abraham, then why is the Sabbath a sign to remind their exodus from Egypt? Exodus 16:23,29; 31:13-18. Were either Abraham or Seventh-day Adventists ever slaves in Egypt?..."
You missed the issue, just like the Pharisees. The Sabbath is a symbol of dozens of things, but primarily creation and liberty. Are you a new creature (all things are made new). Are you free? (liberty)
13. "...If the Sabbath law is still in force, then why do they not stone their own members when they break the Sabbath as the law said?..."
You will note that the Jews did not stone people from other nations that did not keep the Sabbath. Neither will we. Many of the strictures of the OT were designed to ensure that Jesus would be born into a culture that refrained from idolatry, sun-worship, and the like.
14. "...Ellen G. White, who is considered inspired by Seventh-day Adventists, said that the Pope changed the Sabbath in about 321 AD. Why do all Adventists today reject their inspired prophet and say the change of the Sabbath occurred in about 140 AD? If White was wrong about this, was she wrong when she traveled to heaven and saw the 4th commandment glowing brighter than all the rest?..."
Another spiteful remark. The ten commandments were indeed changed by the papacy, but that was not the first time that the day of rest was challenged. Was she wrong? Not in this case.
15. "...If the current position of the Seventh-day Adventist church is that the change from Saturday to Sunday took place in 140 AD, doesnít that mean that they have come a long way from Whites 325 AD and have only 40 more years to travel to reach the truth of the Apostolic age?..."
Question based on a different answer from preceding question, not valid.
16. "...If the change from Saturday to Sunday happened, why is there absolutely no discussion of this change of actual day for the first 600 years of church history. Merely calling Sunday the Sabbath doesnít count!..."
Silly. You tell me that no one ever talked about it? Stating a lack of physical evidence does not prove the opposite. Nevertheless, the historian Josephus spoke of a "special day", and NO mention of any kind in the Bible is made that Sunday is the day to keep.
17. "...If Sabbatarians reject Whiteís inspiration, that Constantine change the Sabbath day to Sunday, why do they keep bringing Constantine up as proof? If Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday, why does here merely legislate that work must stop on Sunday with no actual mention of the day being moved?..."
Question based on a different answer from 14 & 15, not valid here.
18. "...If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb 8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex 34:27-28; 1 Kings 8 ,21; Heb 9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?..."
The new covenant is actually older than the old. Look up references to "love the Lord" and such. Nevertheless, they are equivalent in content. If it actually matters to you, you can easily find all 10 commandments in the NT after the ressurection of Christ.
19 & 20 "...Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians never kept the Sabbath (7th day) and have always worshipped on Sunday?
Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians ate the Lordís Supper every Sunday in the tradition of Acts 20 ?..."
Prove it.
21. "...Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians always called Sunday the Lordís Day because, they said, this was the day Jesus rose from the dead?
Why has no Sabbatarian every produced even one historical quote (75-500AD) that says Christians kept the Sabbath?..."
The Bible does not explicitly say that the Lord's Day is even a day of the week, much less Sunday. What christians said is of little value. No historical quote? The NT is full of em, look at the previous paragraphs in this response.
22. "...If the Sabbath is not a ceremonial law, then why is it lumped into the same identical class of "holy convocations" as the rest of the Jewish feast days? Lev 23:2; Ex 20 ; 31:17..."
As stated above, there were ceremonial sabbaths, the one quoted above was on the ninth day of the month, not the seventh day of the week. You can find yearly sabbaths, monthly sabbaths, sabbaths that have nothing to do with time. These we are not concerned with, we just care about the one God wrote in stone with His own finger.
23. "...If the 10 commandments remain but the book of law was abolished, then why did God put two copies of the 10 commandments in the book of the law? Ex 20; Deut 5..."
Not sure if I follow you. The ten commandments were written twice, once on each side of the tablet.
24. "...How can there possibly be an difference between "the law of God" and the "Law of Moses" when God gave the Law of Moses (Ezra 7:6; Neh 8:1) and Moses gave the Law of God (Neh 10:29; 2 Chron 34:14)?..."
Read carefully, both were from God. Exodus 20 & Ezra 7:6.
25. "...If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why are the Jewish feast days called part of the Law of the Lord? (2 Chron 331:3) ..."
Distinct, but still invented by God. Hence, being the Law of the Lord is no issue. Incidentally, there is no 331 chapter in 2 Chronicles.
26. "...If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why in a single chapter of Nehemiah 8are the following phrases all used interchangeably: "book of the law of Moses" v1, "the law" v2, "book of the law" v3, "the law of god" v8, "book of the law of god" v18?
Why are the two most important commandments contained within the "ceremonial law of Moses that was Sabbatarians say was nailed to the cross? (Matthew 22:36-40) ..."
Same thing. They were all made by God (see 24) but that does not make them equivalent.
27. "...Why did Jesus say Moses gave the 10 commandment law: "Thou shalt not kill" in Jn 7:19?..."
God wrote it, Moses proclaimed it. Is that so hard?
28. "...If the Sabbath cannot change, because God cannot change (Mal 3:6) then what about all the other feast days and laws that changed? Heb 7:12. And why did Jesus give a "a new commandment" in John 13:34?..."
The ceremonial laws have nothing to do with morality. The law is a reflection of God's character.
29. "...If the ten commandments are going to be in heaven, what is the use of "thou shalt not commit adultery", if there is no marriage in heaven? Lk 20:34-35..."
People have sex without marriage here, and it is sin. If there is no marriage in heaven, sex would still be sin.
30. "...If the Sabbath was given to all men, why were Gentiles called "strangers". Why were Gentiles outside the gates not required to keep the Sabbath? Ex 20:10..."
The gentiles were strangers. The command was not to exclude strangers, as you have said, but rather, if a stranger is on your land, in your home, he/she must abide by your rules.
31. "...How could the Sabbath be a sign between God and Israel, if all nations were expected to keep it? Ex 31:17..."
It is a sign between God and His believers. Even back then, Jews could proseletyze.
32. "...Why did God send the Jews into Babylonian Captivity for breaking the Sabbath, but never ever criticized any Gentiles for never keeping the Sabbath?..."
It is immoral to condemn people for something they did not know was wrong.
33. "...Why did God often criticize the Gentiles via the prophets for moral violations, but never for not keeping the Sabbath?..."
He criticized them for doing the things they knew were wrong.
34. "...If the Gentiles were supposed to keep the Sabbath, why are they called "strangers of the Covenant" in Eph 2:12?..."
Because they didn't know about it.
35. "...If the term, "the law" always means ..."
It doesn't. It can refer the the laws of the US, if the US laws were mentioned.
36. "...If only the ten commandments are going to endure until heaven and earth pass away, why did Jesus say the law AND THE PROPHETS? Mt 5:17-18 ..."
Who said only the ten commandments?
37. "...When Jesus was asked, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" why did Jesus NOT QUOTE from the 10 commandments, but from the abolished ceremonial law of Moses? Matthew 22:36-40..."
Careful of equivocating the ceremonial law with civil law. You are still commanded to love.
38. "...If the 10 commandments are the highest and most complete expression of Godís will, then why did it lack the two most important commandments? Matthew 22:36-40 where is the prohibition against drunkeness, homosexuality and fornication?..."
Read Romans 13 .
39. "...If Sabbatarians will boldly quote "scholars" who are really Bible trashers and skeptics who claim "the origin of Sunday worship is entirely pagan", like Arthur Weigall in his ridiculous little book, "the paganism in our Christianity", will these same Sabbatarians turn a few pages later where these same authors say the origin of the Sabbath is also pagan? "I have, already mentioned that Sunday, too, was a pagan holy-day; and in this chapter I propose to discuss the origin of this custom of keeping one day in the week as a Sabbath, or "day of rest,' and' to show that the practice was forcefully opposed by Jesus Christ. The origin of the seven-day week which was used by the Jews and certain other peoples, but not till, later by the Greeks or Romans, is to be sought in some primitive worship of the moon (The Paganism in Our Christianity, Arthur Weigall, 1928, p209,210-211)..."
I never quoted Him. I get my teachings from scripture. You?
40. "...If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt 12:1-14; Mk 2:23f, Lk 13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn 5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-16..."
You are mixing legalism with keeping the law the way God intended. Living is not forbidden, secular activity is.
41. "...If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did God grow tired of the Jews keeping it and told them to stop keeping the Sabbath? Isa 1:13-14 Did God ever grow weary of anyone not committing adultery or murder, and tell them to be immoral and kill?..."
Read the context, it is ceremonial.
42. "...If the Sabbath is a moral law, how could Jesus break it without sinning? Jn 5:18..."
He didn't break it, He broke the Sabbath of the Talmud.
43. "...If one of the distinctions between the ten commandments was proven by the fact they were written by the finger of God, why did Moses copy them out twice with his own hand? How can there be any distinction between the 10 commandments in the ark and the book of the law beside the ark, if the book contained two copies of exactly what was in the ark?..."
The ceremonial law wasn't written in stone.
44. "...Why are the terms "ceremonial law" and "moral law" never found in the Bible. Why is the word ceremonial or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW and why is the word moral or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW?
If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "Godís laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws? ..."
Be wary of proving the nonexistance of something based on one word. A proper understanding of the entire verse in it's original tongue is more important, and the context can radically change two identical verses. As for moral stuff in the law of Moses, there was a civil law, how to treat slaves and the like.
45. "...If Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, then didnít Mt 5:17 say that only then would they be abolished before heaven and earth pass away? If the law and the prophets are still in force, doesnít that prove Jesus didnít fulfill the law completely?..."
Heaven still exists, therefore His law exists. Fulfilling a law means keeping it, not destroying it.
46. "...If the Jewish law against eating pork was abolished by Christ, why do Sabbatarians continue to enforce what they call, "the ceremonial law of Moses": Mk 7:18-19; 1 Tim 4:1-4; Rom 14:2; Acts 10 -16 ..."
*sigh* The law was plainly given by God, not the Jews. More on cleanliness later...
47. "...Why do you practice Tithing which is Prohibited: 2 Cor 9 forbid Eating Pork, which is Permitted: Mk 7:18-19 and keep the Sabbath which is Abolished: Col 2:14-16? Arenít all three of these ceremonial laws?..."
Tithing is not forbidden, Pork will still make you less healthy, and there were multiple sabbaths, not just the weekly one.
48. "...When Sabbatarians attempt to prove there is a distinction between the moral vs. ceremonial laws, the law of God vs. the Law of Moses, the 10 commandments vs. and the book of the law, and they shown countless bible passages that destroy any distinction Sabbatarians might dream up, will they at least be honest and admit they need to find some definitive way to create this false distinction that does not exist in the Bible and will try again tomorrow?..."
You lost me when the grammar went out the window. Will you explain for me how you can equate murder with not participating in Yom Kippur?
49. "...Why do you refuse to accept that Col 2:16 contains the Old Testament pattern of referring to the Jewish holy says in a yearly, monthly, weekly sequence as in 1 Chronicles 23:31, 2 Chronicles 31:3, 2 Chronicles 8:13, 2 Chronicles 2:4, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, Hosea 2:11, Galatians 4:10?..."
Holy says? Oh, days. There were multiple sabbaths, some were yearly, some monthly, some on a specific day of the year, etc. Only one was written in stone.
50. "...If the plural "sabbaton" in Col 2:16 cannot refer to weekly Sabbath day, then why does plural "sabbaton" refer to the weekly Sabbath day in Matthew 28:1, Luke 4:16, Acts 16:13, Exodus 20:8 (in Septuagint) Leviticus 23:37-38 (in Septuagint)?..."
Actually, the word in Col 2:16 refers to singular. We assume it to refer to the ceremonial law because no other part of the TC are deleted there.
51. "...If Isa 66:23 proves the Sabbath will be in heaven, will the new moon festival also be there? "from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath"..."
Bible says so.
52. "...If Hebrews 4 teaches we are to keep the weekly Sabbath, then why does the text say we are to enter a rest that none of the Jews at the time of Joshua in the promised land ever experienced in v 8? ..."
Same reason why the Pharisees didn't enter into it.
53. "...If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "eternal" then wonít all the Jewish feasts and circumcision also endure because it is also called eternal in Gen 17:10-14 (same Hebrew word used)..."
Eternal means dozens of things, you cannot tell unless you read the context.
54. "...If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "holy" then wonít all the Jewish feasts also endure forever because they are also called holy? ..."
Holiness has nothing to do with this.
55. "...If the Sabbath will endure forever because God hallowed it, then wonít Solomon's temple Ps 65:4; 1 Ki 9:3 and the vessels in the tabernacle Ex 40 ; Num 31:6; 1 Ki 8:4 also endure forever because God hallowed them too?..."
Solomon's temple was destroyed by the Babylonians. Good enough?
56. "...If the Sabbath will endure forever because it was an eternal sign between God and his people, then shouldnít we also still practice circumcision Gen 17:11 and Passover Ex 12:13 because it too is called an eternal sign between God and his people?..."
We do, but in the fulfilled sense. We will likely celebrate a fulfilled sabbath in heaven too.
57. "...If it is only through the Sabbath that we can know that it is God who sanctifies us Ex 31:13, then what ever happened to faith in Christ sanctifying us? Any if we should therefore keep the Sabbath, then we must also build the tabernacle, for the Bible says through it we may know it is God who sanctifies us Ezel 37:28?..."
You are confusing signs with salvation. The sabbath is a sign, but not the act of sanctification. You could, however, learn a lot from researching the tabernacle.
58. "...Pentecost Acts 2:1, The days of unleavened bread Acts 12:3; 20:6, Days of Purification: Acts 21:26, Animal Sacrifices: Acts 21:26, Circumcision: Acts 16:3, Temple worship: Acts 24:12 prove we must keep these too because they are also mentioned and must therefore also still be in force like the Sabbath? ..."
Only if there is a command for it.
59. "...If Seventh-day Adventists want to deny that their official position is that worshipping on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, do they realize that the "inspired" Ellen G. White, Uriah Smith, the Advent review and Leo Schreven (who conducts "Revelation seminars" today) all call it the mark of the beast?..."
EGW did not call Sunday Worship the Mark of the Beast. She called ENFORCED Sunday worship the Mark of the Beast. Get your facts straight.
60 "...Christians can find 21 reasons why the first day of the week is significant to their faith as Christians in the New Testament. Can Sabbatarians find even one reason in the New Testament why the Sabbath has any meaning distinct to Christians? ..."
Sure:
Acts 13:14 - But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Acts 13:27 - For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Acts 13:42 - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Acts 13:44 - And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Acts 16:13 - And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Acts 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 18:4 - And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
61. "...Did you know that the Jewish Sabbath was significant to the Jews because it was a memoral of this present physical creation and their deliverance from the bondage of Egypt and that the first day of the week is a memorial of our new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5 ) and our deliverance from the bondage of sin. (Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1 ) ..."
Yeah, note that Jesus finished His work on Friday, Rested on Saturday (in the grave), and began working again on Sunday.
62. "...Did you know that regardless of whether the Sadduceeís or Phariseeís method of calculating Pentecost was used the year Christ died, both would calculate Pentecost in Acts 2:1 as the first day of the week. Did you also know that the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist church was that Pentecost in Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday that year?..."
Yeah, I also know that Pentecost and Sabbath are mutually exclusive.
63. "...Do you realize that the phrase, "that no collections be made when I come" in 1 Cor 16:2 proves the Christians were forbidden from saving up their offerings each week at home and demanded they put it into a common treasury every Sunday? ..."
This was not the tithe (it was a collection for poor saints, and was not commanded at all the churches, solely the Churches at Corinth and Galatia), and it does not say anything about keeping any day.
64. "...Did you know that 1 Cor 16:2 actually says, "EVERY 1st day" because the same Greek phrase is also found in Acts 13:14 "appointed elders in EVERY church". Did you know that you must give every 1st day of the week in to the churchís common treasury? ..."
Obscenely elementary argument, the prophets are read every sabbath day, why not keep it?
65. "...If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, then why did Jesus count the Friday - Sunday duration as three days in Lk 13:32?
If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, why is exactly a 72 hour period called 4 days by Peter in Acts 10:3+9+23+24+30? ..."
Who demands 72 hours? Three days can refer to any length of time that spans into three days, note the example at the mount of transfiguration, and how days were tracked there. (Matthew 17:1 & Luke 9:28)
66. "...If the fact that the 10 commandments were written in stone, that proves they will never be abolished, then where was Adamís stone copy of the 10 commandments? Why did God not give Adam a stone copy once for all time? Why is it that Moses was first person in history to not only see the 10 commandments, but the first person to hold the stone tablets upon which the 10 commandments were written? Why do Seventh-day Adventists argue that the ten commandment law is no longer written in stone, but in the flesh of the human heart in 2 Corinthians 3:3? (Of course 2 Cor 3:3 says the 10 commandments were abolished and the new Covenant, the law of Christ is written on human hearts) ..."
You mentioned this already, plainly, Adam became like God, knowing good and evil.
67. "...If only the 10 commandments we can "live", then why does Ezek 20:11 say this of the "ceremonial law", "I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live." (Ezek 20:11)?..."
Grammar looks botched again. Pretty sure you mean "we can only live by the TC". Nevertheless, you will only live if Jesus lives in you. Legalism is not allowed.
Pheeki:Wow! He put a lot of work into this...this is going to take a while to answer. |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 10:56 am: | |
You know, that is just exhausting to look at. At all costs, he wants to see the use of the word "sabbath" in Acts to "prove" that attending synagogue equates keeping an old covenant command. IF going to church does not equal keeping the command, as he states somewhere in there, why does he keep using the scripture that points to their church attendance to prove that they kept the 4th command? My question is always WHERE does God say it is a sin to worship on Sunday. There is a huge leap to say that by worshipping on Sunday that we are somehow trying to keep a holy day. He is taking what SDAs say about people who go to church on Sunday and ignoring the fact that many who go to church on Sunday do not think it is keeping a holy day. Furthermore, many so-called Sundaykeepers attend churches that also have services on Saturdays...if Sunday is a holy day just like SDAs think Saturday is a holy day, how can they do that? SDAs would certainly never consider having services on Sundays to hold overflow crowds.
But he's playing symantical mind-games. He is making presumptions about things the scripture never says. (the law in genesis, etc.) You are not going to be able to dis-spell any of his arguments as long as he wants to hold on to the belief that the Sabbath is a moral issue. As for Christ's actions...I always like to point out that Christ ate meat and never owned a house. So, I would think if his actions dictates commandments, Adventists can't be vegetarian, and they must give up their houses. One argument is no more ridiculous than the other. Unless God IS a day of the week, he can change whatever he wants.
But all that said, to go through point by point would be pointless...He thinks Adam got the mind of God, so I presume he thinks that's how Adam got the 10 commandments? You can't change a hard heart, Pheeki. He's not seeking God, he's trying to be right. He's arguing Adventism, not Christ. If he really thinks Christ changed nothing other than the death of a few animals, he really has no concept of what Christ did for us at all. Neither does he apparently understand how sinful man really is in God's eyes if the 10 is a reflection of God's character (and where is that in scripture again??). Jesus is God's reflection and what we should focus on, not the 10. But you are not going to win that in a point by point argument. He doesn't get it, and furthermore, doesn't want it. You've presented him the truth...that means you've done your job. Shake the dust from your feet, and move on....so to say. |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 11:30 am: | |
Pheeki, this is idolatry pure and syimple. Many SDAs worship a day as their primary deity. You're never going to "win" arguing the relative merits or demerits of this particular idol. The best you can do is to put the focus on the only true and living God. Preach the Gospel and make Jesus Christ the very center of all you do and say, then let the Holy Spirit do the rest. A point by point refutation of His refutation will serve no purpose other than taking hte conversation farther away from the person of Jesus Christ.
Chris |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 12:43 pm: | |
I agree. Melissa, your use of the "shaking the dust from you feet" phrase is apt here. There's no convincing a mind that wants to be "right" regardless of the evidence.
I don't have my Bible with me right now (I'm in the library during my prep period!), but in Titus Paul warns against arguing the law, geneologies, etc. These things are pointless and do nothing except to lock us into combat, so to speak. Sometimes arguing is fun, but it seldom convinces.
Praise God for BEING the truth!
Colleen |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 1:02 pm: | |
Thanks all! Here is what I replied.
If the Sabbath cannot save you, it cannot lose you!
End of conversation! |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 7:35 pm: | |
I heard one of the best explanations of the law and its applicability to New Covenant Christians recently. When I learned to drive, I had difficulty driving in a straight line. I would weave all over the roaqd. First, I would stray toward the shoulder, realize that I was getting off course and over correct. Next thing you know, I was straying toward the center line and then back I would go toward the shoulder. Finally, my driver's education instructor realized what I was doing and advised me to stop looking at the end of the car and instead to focus down the road. Immediately, my problem was solved and I have not looked at those lines since. I still stay within the lines, but they are not my focus.
Its no different with the law. When we focus on the law, we stray from one boundary to another. "Don't do this, be sure to do that." All we see is the rules and how well we are doing at keeping them or not keeping them. Our focus is short-sighted. However, when we accept Jesus' free gift of salvation, we are released from the law and the need to measure our conduct by its precepts. Instead, we look down the road at LIFE--the life that God so desires for us to have. I don't refuse to commit adultery because the law requires it of me, but I am able to see that adultery is not life producing and therefore is not something that I want to do. Even ifr the lines were not there, my focus would not change. Oh, what a difference perspective makes.
As others have said, some people feel more secure looking at the lines. However, I am learning more and more that "playng it safe is not living." Until the Spirit reveals this, all the arguments in the world will not convince some people.
Doug |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
Doug, what a great example. And Pheeki, I love your answer!
I'm so tghankful for Jesus!
Colleen |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 5:57 am: | |
Doug,
Would you mind if I put this post of yours up on CARM. I could use your name or not whatever you wish. I will comply with whatever you say.
I think it is a very good analagy and have never heard it put quite like that.
Thanks Carol |
Cindy (Cindy)
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 6:23 am: | |
Doug, A good analogy on what will be our focal point under Christ's lordship...
I agree with you that until the Spirit reveals this NEW!! Covenant way of living, all our arguments and seemingly-covincing persuasions for this Christ-focused, Spirit-led way of life fall on their ears as antinomian, law-breaking statements.
It is impossible to grasp this different perspective without the Spirits' gift of removing the veil!
As Paul repeatedly says in Galations,
"ALL WHO RELY ON OBSERVING THE LAW ARE UNDER A CURSE."
and, "YOU WHO ARE TRYING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW HAVE BEEN ALIENATED FROM CHRIST; YOU HAVE FALLEN AWAY FROM GRACE."
No matter what any denomination or religious leader may say...to 'start' with Christ and then 'rely' on following the Old Covenant's so-called Ten Commandment "moral" law is to promote a subtle-- but very definite--turning away from true life in the Spirit.
(And, YES, it IS a reliance on observing the law when you must point BACK to Sinai for your Christian life instead of living TODAY in the Holy Spirits' leading.)
I don't think our explanations of this new way of living can ever do it justice... Only our total reliance on Jesus will give any power to anything we do or say.
grace always,
cindy |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 1:23 pm: | |
Cindy, I completely agree with you. Words cannot explain living by the Spirit; it all sounds either antinomian or like yet another formula for "good living". Only the Spirit's opening our spiritual eyes makes this reality clear.
Colleen |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 9:02 pm: | |
Carol,
I claim no ownership to anything that I post here. Do with it as you wish; however, I agree with Colleen and Cindy that it will likely fall on deaf ears until the Spirit removes the veil. If they cannot see the plain word of s ripture (i.e. 2 Cor 3), its not likely they will be convinced by human arguments/examples.
Doug |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 3:43 pm: | |
Amen Colleen! I talked to a Sabbitarian guy for a while that is not SDA, doesn't even go to church because he can't find one to agree with him. When he asked the question, sarcastically, "What is being led by the Spirit?" I knew we were in trouble. Law and Spirit can't go hand in hand, it does get exhausting and there is no point in arguement. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 12:26 pm: | |
One question that I need an answer to and so I am asking all of you.
What must I do to be saved? I know I cannot "do" anything, so besides accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior is there anything else. Please show me the texts in the Bible also.
thanks
Diana |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 73
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 8:35 pm: | |
Diana,
The whole reason for the law was to show us that we are hopeless sinners. If I ran through the ten commandments and asked you if you'd ever lied, ever stolen anything, ever been jealous of your neighbor, etc, you would most likely say yes to most of them. So, by admitting that, you are a theif, liar, etc. (we all are too)you recognize your sin.
Now, in contrast to a holy God that is perfect and good and sinless; how do you figure you measure up? Miserably, right? So when you stand before Him what defense do you have? He says if you have even one sin you are guilty of breaking the whole law. (James 2:10) What can you say? You can point out every single good thing you've ever done, but if you still have that one sin there is no way any of it will count.
So, you realize that you are a sinner, you can't stop sinning, you have no defense and you deserve the sentence for your crime which is death.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus, our Lord. Romans 6:23
But if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
Jesus paid your sin debt and He gives you the free gift of eternal life!
If you believe that Jesus was born, died and raised from the dead and you confess your sin He will forgive you and stamp your debt paid in full. Tell Him you want forgiveness and ask Him to fill you with the Holy Spirit that seals you for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13,14) and follow Him. He will be there every step of the race and cheering you on.
There is no special formula, just talk to Him, if you want to be saved He wants to save you. He's not looking for any special phrase or perfect prayer.
"I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7
Salvation is the greatest miracle. Bless you sister!
Sabra |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 172
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 11:45 pm: | |
Paul told the Philippian jailor, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31)
Sabra explained it well.
With prayers for you,
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 280
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 8:59 am: | |
One of my all time favorite texts:
"...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, ``WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.'' " Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
Notice is doesn't say you MIGHT be saved, you COULD be saved, I HOPE you're saved. It says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you *WILL* be saved." That's quite a promise. Best of all, you can read this passage in context all day long and never find any fine print or hidden qualifiers either.
Chris |
Thomas1
Registered user
Username: Thomas1
Post Number: 111
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 12:56 pm: | |
Diana,
Salvation is through belief in Jesus, alone. Nothing added. Two texts that speak to me are in I John. The first is in Chapter three. I believe it speaks to those who say we need to keep God's law. This plainly states what His law is for us, who are the gentile church, post cross.
It says:
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
The second states plainly what keeping this "law" assures us. It is in Chapter five.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
(both texts from The New American Standard Bible 1995 update.
It is so tempting to want to add our human effort to what Jesus did for us on the cross. Sorry, there is nothing you can add that is acceptable to God. Jesus, Paul, John, throughout the New Testament the message is the same. You are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus. Period. As Paul stated, "not of works,less anyone should boast".
Bask in His gift to you and hold tight. Never, Never, Never let anyone add anything as a requirement to salvation, to what he gives to you free.
You are in His grace, now and forever!
Enjoy!
<><
Thomas
|
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 91
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 5:53 pm: | |
To all you lovely people,
I forgot where I had posted this question and discovered it today. Since posting it, I have read the NT and just finished 2 Timothy. As all of you wrote, I do not have to add anything. All I do is accept Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour. When I read John and read how God the Father loves us and wants us to accept his Son I was astonished that the gospel is so simple. It is so simple! I thank each of you for answering me.
God is awesome.
Diana |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page