| Author |
Message |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 322
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 7:20 am: |     |
Brett,
Really, just stick to the Word of God.. I see this is only your second post so I don't really know where you are spiritually. But don't let some of these conversations confuse you. People will always have opinions about this person or that person and may be more mature in the Word to analyze certain things people say.
If you are just coming out of SDA, I would just say ignore this thread if you are getting confused. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 323
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 7:35 am: | |
Joyce Meyer is NO EGW.
In Chris' post, re: the bell.. She's from the south and talks really plainly and was meaning the HS. Not a real bell! And the reason the "bell" would go off for everyone else is because the HS bears witness against itself so others walking in the Spirit maturely would recognize a lie. The HS within us would recognize a lie from someone else. Often the Spirit perceives what the mind has not yet and then we go "What was that she just said?" The Spirit in us does something to alert or warn us.
She is saying the HS is perfect and she is not, so her "bell" would "alert, rebuke" her saying that "Hey! You are saying something outside of God, Check that and recant, correct, fix it, but do it now!" she was saying she has to answer to the HS just like everyone else.
Well, I totally understand how out of context, that seems an odd statement. I also see how abused many were on this site and are watchful about everything. I don't blame you though. And as much as not everyone is right, there are many many more people that preach that seek to live and do right by God and don't teach outside of God's word.
I will stay out of this topic though! I got enough with loving an SDA !! 
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Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 324
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:00 am: | |
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quote:
ěIím going to tell you something folks, I didnít stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasnít a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks thatís heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that Iím righteous and I canít be righteous and be a sinner at the same time ... All I was ever taught to say was, ëIím a poor, miserable sinner.í I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?î - Joyce Meyer
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quote:
ěIf we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in usî - the apostle John (1 John 1:8).
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This one is common. It's when referring to the scripture and assumption that we are the righteousness of Christ. Acceptable in God's sight. It's the assumption that you know the only way you are acceptable to the Lord accept through Christ. But yes, standing alone, we are sinners. It does not = a contradiction for me. |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 672
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:16 am: | |
Sigh, here we go again. Guys...Joyce Meyers is NOT dangerous! The Lord is using the woman in powerful ways in the Christian church. That doesn't mean she is THE person God is using. She is just one person through whom the Lord is working. The Lord has used stuff she has written to radically impact my life and open me for some healing that the Lord needed to do. I know of many others who will tell you the same is true of them.
Yes, there is much of the Word of Faith movement (or as my pastor puts it "blab it and grab it") that is far off base. BUT there is stuff that they "get" that far more traditional churches do not "get".
You are far more likely to hear from them that the Word of God is more important than what our minds are telling us. For instance, if one who has been trapped in low self-esteem continues living out their lives carrying the message in their heads, "I can't do that I am nothing", then they are never going to make progress, never going to do anything for God. If that person is taught to replace that message with "God says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," so I AM able and CAN be used by God, then they are going to make progress in living victoriously.
I grew up in a very traditional church. So I know that the message in that denomination runs, "Christ died on the cross so you can be saved and set free", end of sermon, we sing a song, and everyone goes home. Never were there specific helps beyond that to teach people HOW to lay hold of/walk in that freedom. That HOW is part of what God is using Joyce Meyers, and many others, to teach.
There are folks out there who are broken and bleeding inside emotionally for any number of reasons. The teaching they need to get away from that stuff has to get alot tougher than the standard "just do it". They have to be walked through the how to let go, how to allow God, what new behavior should look like,how to fight the internal battles, etc.
And one small part of that, Chris, is that they have to learn to stop labeling themselves as "sinner" i.e. "loser". Because seeing themselves as wearing that label "sinner" is synonomous in their minds with "hopeless, chained, will stay in my muck until I die".
It is only when they finally "get" that God has now labeled them as "righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ and therefore set free from satans power" that they can understand that it is through Christ that they can live differently. When you listen to the entire message that Joyce Meyers teaches you will realize that she does NOT tell people that they are perfect or that they do not sin. But rather that, through Christ, they can now live differently.
We make a huge mistake when we rush to slap a label on another Christian. It is in slapping that label on that we immediatelly close our ears and refuse to listen to the good stuff they can teach us. We DON'T know it all, and we CAN learn from each other.
When we hear from several people that their lives have been radically changed, they've been set free, they are more in love with God than ever, they are more excited about reading the Bible, and more passionate about serving Jesus, it should be a tip off that just maybe we should be a little less quick to judge the teacher they have been listening to.
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Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 778
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:30 am: | |
A much more thorough analysis of Joyce Meyer's theology can be foundthrough this link to APOLOGETICS INDEX. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1666
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:33 am: | |
Having never heard Joyce Meyer myself, I cannot comment on her theology except to say I'm not in agreement with "word-faith" theology because it is not Biblical.
Brent, God can reveal Himself to us wherever He wishes to do so. Praise God you accepted Jesus at that Joyce Meyers conference. When God calls us to Himself, He never leaves us where He finds us. He keeps revealing Himself and truth to us as we grow in Him.
My grandmother accepted Jesus when she left the Greek Orthodox church early in the century in Romania. The G.O. church didn't allow its members (at that time and place) to study the Bible for themsleves, and a friend invited my grandmother to attend an Adventist home church where my grandma discovered the Bible.
My grandmother emigrated to Canada, and she raised her six children as Adventists. My mother and one uncle, however, left Adventism to follow Jesus. As we were leaving, I had to think through the implications of my leaving the church to which it seemed clear God had called my grandma. I realized that God is in the business of bringing us to Himself, and He knows exactly where we are and what we will respond to. He reveals Himself to us in ways and places that we understand.
Our problem would occur if we were to see the medium through which we find Jesus as The Answer. Jesus Himself is The Answer. He calls us to immerse ourselves in His word, praying for His teaching and revelation as we surrender to Him and grow spiritually and learn to walk with the Spirit.
I first realized I wanted to follow Jesus as an Adventist. I prayed to know Him and to be like Him. I had no clue I was essentially asking Him to lead me beyond the confines of what I believed to be truth. Yet the Adventist church was the "world" God asked me to give up in order to follow Him.
The reactions on this site to Joyce Meyers are not to call into question whether or not God used her meeting to speak to you and to open your heart to Jesus. Praise God He used Joyce's meeting in such a wonderful way! The cautions you read, though, are concerns that neither you nor anyone else will begin to accept all of Joyce's teachings because of God's powerful work on your heart in her meeting.
We need to submit everything we read and learn to Jesus. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth as we surrender our growth and study to Him. You are among friends, Brent--sometimes our passion is intense because of the fact that we have become highly sensitized to deception and heresy.
You are in Jesus's hands now, Brent--you are a true child of God, and He will personally take responsibility for your continued growth and learning.
We are thrilled that you're with us, and we will continue to pray for you!
Colleen |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 673
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:23 pm: | |
If you will notice back up there to how this conversation got started, you will find that what the listener heard in Joyce's meeting was "practical advice for day to day living in Christ." And then there was that mention about "entire topics of conversation were on Jesus." Now folks, that's a real key.
"Jesus" was the focus of what was said, what was read. Not self, not a particular doctrine, not a human being, the focus was Jesus. The person was led closer to Jesus, not something else. The person is encouraged to get into the Bible, not a person. In Adventism we were led away from the Bible and to egw, and taught to fear believers. Big difference there!
My personal concern is not with what was said about Joyce Meyers per se. My concern is with being closed to what people from the other end of the Christian fellowship table have to say. And that is what some of the comments indicated. It sounds very much akin to "anything sounding a bit charimatic always and inevitably=evil".
There is a very real problem in Christendom with those in very traditional churches immediately raising a shield when talking to a charismatic. And it works just as surely the other way around, too. If when you hear the word "charismatic" or "pentecostal" you automatically close your ears and refuse to hear anything they have to say, then I've got to tell you, you are shutting out a fellow believer. And that is just not the way it is supposed to work!
The charismatic has stuff to teach you. And you have stuff to teach the charismatic. It does NOT have to be you are either in one camp or the other. If we don't talk to teach other, don't listen to each other, then we surely won't learn a thing from each other.
I grew up in a very traditional Christian church. Then went to the SDA's.....yeah talk about stupid! When we left there I fully expected the Lord to take us back to that very traditional denomination. He did not. Instead he led us to a place where there was more of the charimatic influence.
I was immediately deeply skeptical of stuff charimatics had to say. But the Lord proded me to stop immediately shutting down, stop filtering everything through my very traditional ears of assuming I knew exactly what they were saying, and actually start listening to what they had to say. You better believe I continually went to the word of God to compare the stuff I was hearing! I still do it constantly. I am a stubborn individual. And am not about to be deceived again.
What my husband and I have found is that, surprisingly often, the charismatic had a much better view of the truth than we had previously had. AND there were many times they were saying the same thing as what I had been taught back there in the traditional church, but they had different words to express it.
Point of all this is, IF you look at everything through the filter of the over arching message of scriptures and not just a particular doctrine, then no other believer is "dangerous". IF you are daily working on your relationship with God, the Bible, prayer, and fellowship with Him, He is going to keep you centered in the truth.
So.....I already hear you saying, "yeah....so how did you get into the sda's...." I'll just point you back to that part about not looking at one particular point of doctrine....in our case endtime prophecy. And that caution applies whether you are talking to an SDA, Methodist, Lutheran, or whoever. One part of our baggage leaving SDA is a "they" are dangerous way of thinking. I think we need to be very careful not to get into finding a whole new bunch of "they" who are actually fellow believers. |
Melinda
Registered user
Username: Melinda
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:47 pm: | |
Lydell, you are much better with words and have said what I was trying to say.
Our pastor always said that in our city, there was only one Church, it just manifested itself in different ways and different denominations. I believe we can learn from all of them, and if God wants to, He can speak to us from any preacher He chooses.
When we first left the SDA church we began to visit other churches. Since we live in the Bible belt we had several churches to visit. At this time in our life there was one particular thing God was telling us, and EVERY church we went to God said the same thing to us. This happened even at the Adventist church we visited when our parents came for Christmas. It just showed me that God will speak to us in all kinds of ways and in whatever way He chooses. After all, He is God.
Those who know me personally will say I am the furthest thing from being a charismatic, but I enjoy visiting charismatic churches and learning from them. It is easy to be afraid of them, especially since the SDA denomination represses any kind of emotions. But I have learned that expressing emotions is a good thing, and you can see it done all throughout the Bible.
I am not saying that I have elevated JM to the status of a prophet or have let her take the place of the Bible. I have fallen in love with the Bible since exiting SDA's and it is my favorite book. But I like reading other authors too and like learning what everyone has to say. Just because someone may have a belief that I don't agree with doesn't mean I will not listen to them. I think I would be limiting God if I did that.
I also believe that because formers have so much feeling about EGW that it is easy to be afraid of prophecy. I believe it is still relevant today. There was a perfect example of a personal prophecy on this FAF website that someone posted very recently and I thought it was beautiful and nothing to be afraid of.
It is just wonderful to me to see how God works and how much He wants to have a relationship with me. I praise Him for that.
Melinda
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Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 277
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 7:02 pm: | |
Amen, Lydell and Melinda. Actually, in the past years of visiting churches, about the most charismatic congregations were actually United Methodist churches. Three different ones in two different states! Go figure.
Praise God... |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 147
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:14 pm: | |
Speaking of what charismatics and "mainliners" can learn from each other, read the article at this link called "Hand-Clapping In A Gothic Nave."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/003/31.58.html |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1673
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:27 pm: | |
Lydell, J. Packer agrees with your statement that the charismatics have a lot to teach Christians. His book "Keep In Step With the Spirit" examines the charismatic movement that was beginning to sweep through "mainline" churches in the 80s, and he concluded that its theology and belief in the Bible as the ground of truth was sound. He also concluded that its focus on the power of the Holy Spirit and the presence of Jesus was something Christians needed to awaken them from fairly dead, intellectual complacency.
He said his research suggested that the charismatic movement might be characterized by some spiritual immaturity, but that its understanding of the Holy Spirit's power was something we all needed to embrace.
I believe that Jesus' statement in John 4:24 to the woman at the well sums it up: we must worship in spirit and in truth. When we are born again and our spirits come to life, we are enabled to worship God in our spirits. We are also to worship Him in truth--external facts (found in the Bible!) which our minds must understand. Jesus' statement clarifies that both the spirit and the mind must be involved in our worship.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 88
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:50 pm: | |
Could I ask you who posted above? Did you go to the last link posted by Chris just before Colleen's post. Folks, it is worse than I said yesterday. I could not believe the stuff this woman teaches. Christ had to go to the pit of hell to be tortured to make the final atonement. This is the same garbage that comes from Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, and many others. This is flat out heresy. And since you say that she said this back in 1991, can you show me any statement where she repudiated this stuff? But look also at the Christianity Today article from Jan. 2004 about her financial status. This woman is idolatrously followed by millions, and she makes millions. If you could be rich just by naming it and claiming it, everybody would be doing it. I listened weekly to Dr Walter Martin, and he was much more concerned about the falsehood of this Word Faith movement than he was about SDA and EGW. The bottom line is this: The Spirit of Adventism equals the Spirit of the Word Faith movement. They are both un-Biblical. Also the "you can be rich" theology, can only be pedaled in the USA; try pedaling this garbage in the third world. Think about it. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is only out of deep concern, after being out of SDA for 22 years, that I am concerned about other deceptions out there. Stan |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:55 pm: | |
I agree also with what Colleen just said about J. Packer's assessment of the charismatic movement. We are to test the spirits. My post was only about the Word Faith movement which most people believe to be beyond the pale of orthodoxy. Stan |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 278
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:47 am: | |
Great article, Bob. Thanks for posting the link. A couple of days ago I was at my exercise club and I ran into the wife of the senior pastor at a large AOG church nearby. I have attended there a few times and we know each other through mutual friends. She was hoping I would make their church my home.
My understanding is that AOG churches are quite congregational. This particular one is very focused on loving your neighbors, sharing the gospel and winning them to Christ. Itís an extremely multicultural church (which I love, to tie this into another thread) and another great thing they have going for themselves is that they have a foundational belief in prayer. But yet, deep down, I know I can never be a Pentecostal, no matter if the local one ignores the things that bother me in their doctrinal statements. Itís that denominational baggage thing again.
I find myself in the awkward position of sitting in the middle of the spectrum between traditionalist and the charismatics in what would be the best type of congregation. Well, maybe not the exact middle but I have extensively visited churches of many persuasions, denominational and nondenominational.
As Lydell pointed out, letís be cautious in our judgments. Yes, we need to go to the word. And, yes, the Word of Faith when truly Word of Faith is very much outside of what I find in the Bible but we have to recognize that a lot of what is out there is that wall that the article Bob posted is talking about. It is a reluctance of the part of either camp to embrace the other as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
No, Stan. I didnít look at Jeremyís links right now because I have read it all in the past. I havenít listened to Joyce Meyer in probably two years. But I will tell you there was a season when the Holy Spirit used her to reach me. For the first time I could see out of the SDA traditional box. I saw someone who promoted grace. I heard someone who, like me, had a love for the Lord and had tried and tried to do everything right but then came to understand the unconditional love of Jesus. I heard someone who was passionate about Jesus. Even more, I interacted with an audience that had sheer joy for Jesus. Wow, was that a whole new concept. And I heard messages about prayer really meaning something and learning to wait upon Godís timing. In the SDA church, I was always on boards, even a conference committee. The only thing that prayer amounted to was a perfunctory few seconds at the beginning of a meeting so you could then plan and argue about your own agenda because so seldom did anyone ever think that perhaps we could stop and gain direction through prayer.
We all have so much to learn while leaving Adventism. Each of us needs to be on the alert, deep in prayer and study of the Word and cautious as we listen to the Holy Spirit and rework our beliefs to truly match the Bible.
Praise GodÖ
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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 483
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:14 pm: | |
Actually, it was Chris that gave the link. I had been staying out of this, but I'll post my thoughts. There are some churches (Calvary Chapel for example) that try to have a good, Biblical balance between "traditional" churches and the extreme "charismania," as Chuck Smith calls it.
I think what most of us are concerned with is not whether or not a teacher/group is charismatic, but whether their teachings and practices are Biblical or false. Chris posted a quote from Joyce Meyer where she states that if I don't believe that Jesus suffered and paid the price for my sins in hell, in addition to on the cross, then I cannot go to heaven, and there is no hope of me going to heaven. I am sorry but that is just plain, absolute false teaching/heresy, and a false gospel. I do not believe that Jesus suffered in hell and I am saved and I am going to be in heaven!
If God reached out and helped some of you through Joyce Meyer's meetings, etc., that is wonderful, as others have said. But I cannot and will not accept her false teachings and false gospel, even if people have been blessed when listening to her. The Word of God has to be the standard of truth. If she has repented of teaching her false gospel, that is wonderful. But I don't know if anyone can show that she has.
Jeremy |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 822
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 1:57 pm: | |
To Jeremy's point about God using anyone, isn't it true that many of you found Christ in the SDA church, yet you didn't stay there. Is there a difference when heresy is recognize, you move on?
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Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 280
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 2:32 pm: | |
Yes, Melissa, I believe you are right. It would seem that the Holy Spirit doesn't bother to check to get our approval on how he intervenes in people's lives and what various methods he uses within places and congregations with which we disagree. I've known people who had the Holy Spirit work within within taverns.
It was a few years ago now that I was worshipping at a place that I just knew was off theologically speaking. But I also saw God working within that meeting. I believe Jesus is everywhere working and as you say, once you find him, we aren't left in our current circumstances.
Praise God... |
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