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Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 382
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |     |
Stan and Raven, what do you feel are the statements which are most suspect?
richard |
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:17 pm: | |
Richard, I missed your post earlier. Now that you mention it, his mp3 does not mention where he is, but I made the assumption from one of the websites that it was accurate (and at the moment I don't remember WHICH website I read that on  ). But you did say you personally heard him speak, which at the very least "proves" he is a real person speaking (which I have no way to verify personally). Perhaps I should clarify my understanding, but I got the impression you heard the message similar to what is posted on the website?
(Message edited by melissa on January 30, 2006) |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 365
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 1:47 pm: | |
quote:You have scorned my rapture throughout your entire brief existence as a church and thus you have chosen not to be included in it. You have altered my truths regarding this Earth's final events, so that your people will not be prepared for my coming and you deceive my Christians with your heretical Sunday laws and mark of the beast deceptions. You teach contempt and condemnation toward my Jews and you claim to have replaced them and call yourselves spiritual Israel. Such thinking led to the tortuous murder of millions of my chosen people; for they will be restored and they, not you, will do my work during the tribulation. There is a judgment of fire for all people who have demeaned my Jews.
http://www.amessagefromgodtothesdachurch.com/
Richard, the bold parts in the above quote are the ones that are suspect to me. The only "rapture" SDA's have scorned is the secret rapture. I don't believe the Bible supports a secret rapture (in which case there is a second chance for some people). But even if it does, the end time details are so scarce in the Bible (and difficult to determine with certainty), that I just highly doubt God would endorse through a message a particular belief system in that area. If you look at history, most prophecies were not understood by anyone until they happened, or had just recently happened. It's not exactly an essential doctrine to have the correct end-time belief, or it should be a test of fellowship for churches.
Also, where in the Bible does it state that the Jews will do God's work during the tribulation, and where does it state there is a judgment of fire for all who have demeaned God's Jews?
If something isn't clearly found in the Bible, it is suspect to me. I do not believe there is any new light after the Bible.
(Message edited by Raven on January 30, 2006) |
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 1:53 pm: | |
Just to add to Raven's good points is a fundamental belief that this kind of direct revelation from God is not the true New Testament doctrine of the gift of prophecy. God will speak directly through His gospel and Word, as Martin Luther said so well once. There is no longer any need for any visions from God telling someone what the Bible supposedly says. I think we have been there and done that.
But those bold points Raven emphasized are very suspect.
Stan |
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 915
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 12:26 am: | |
As I have already said, I don't hold a torch for any of the rapture theories, and am willing to allow history to play itself out. I do want to point out, however, that Adventism has painted a particular scenario for the end of days, starting with the Sunday Law--death threats to Sabbath keepers, and such. Revelation does name all 12 tribes of Isreal in it's mention of the 144,000. Adventism has, for all of its brief history, been willing to claim God's promises to Isreal rather than His promises to NT believers.
It is too bad that Dr. Hughes didn't recite chapter and verse to support each of his points. I just do not feel that willing to write him off because of that failure. Dr. Ford was nothing if not thorough when he recited chapter and verse to support his stand on the sanctuary and look where it got him. Adventism needs a clear wake-up call, and 150 years ago they were willing to listen to visions and dreams. Who is to say that God isn't inspiring someone to fight fire with fire. |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 71
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 9:47 pm: | |
Wow! Another name I know! I wondered what happened to Herschel & Sondra! I emailed them a few times after I left California, but they never wrote back or never received my emails. I have warm feelings towards both of them, though I do hardly know them. Back in 2001 (my last year in California before moving to Japan), they started spiritual renewal meetings at their (or someone else's?) home not far from campus. I went to check it out.
I found him and his wife very friendly. I think they were a bit surprised to find that I already knew the Holy Spirit, because they were perhaps prepared to "do the teaching" at the meetings. There were some young people (non-Adventist, I think) who met there and led in worship. They were also friendly and prayed for me when I shared a need the second (and last, I think) time that I went.
Dr. Hughes had a lot of admiration for Calvary Chapel and how it began, which explains his belief in the secret rapture. It would also probably explain his belief in CC's version of end-time events, which coincides with their beliefs about Israel. I've written about some of that here: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/4253.html?1149228471
I believe the Hughes' know the Spirit, but at the same time there are a lot of things that can happen which will make our interpretation of what the Spirit says a little funky. The gospel is the interpretor of all scripture, and the gospel is also the interpretor of all prophecy. Not only that, but the gospel is the goal of prophecy. The spirit (essence) of prophecy is to testify about Jesus.
Sometimes when we receive something extraordinary from the Spirit, we tend to interpret it without waiting for God to interpret it. We can easily give things a fleshy interpretation, or we can easily rush to a "thus saith the Lord" because we think 'A' connects to 'B', and therefore 'C'.
That God is sending prophets to Adventism to lead her to Christ is certain. They come in many different forms, and few if any are perfect because we're all walking the path towards wholeness in Christ. I think Dr. Hughes has indeed felt the promptings of the Spirit to reach out to His kids in Adventism, but at the same time the filter would be greatly improved by studying the New Covenant and letting go of anything else from other influences.
I liked a lot of the points in this discussion about visions (etc.) not revealing new doctrines. At the same time, they can lead us to Christ (indeed, if they lead us elsewhere, well, that's when we get into trouble!). One example is of the many Muslims that Campus Crusade reported to have seen visions of Jesus and come to know Him and eventually make contact with Christians.
I think perhaps one thing that we often forget is that when Jesus spoke, He exposed peoples' hearts. He did talk of Scripture, and He did make points, etc., but the main thing that He was after was their heart. Those who knew Him already in their hearts recognized Him in the flesh, and they followed. Those who had been blind in their hearts (i.g., Zaccheus) had their veils removed. But to those whose hearts had already shut Him off, they would not listen even if all the Scriptures on earth were correctly interpreted for them.
The main purpose of God's Spirit's gifts is to draw us to Christ and build us up. This often involves laying our hearts bare. One of the things prophecy is often given for is to provoke a reaction of the heart. You see this all through Scripture---and oddly enough, all throughout secular myths and literature (where if a prophecy were not given and the antagonist had not heard it, then the course he set out on would not have occurred).
That said, a full prophecy for Adventists will have the effect of revealing many hearts. This is what Christ does by His Spirit, by Scripture, and by Himself (Hebrews 4:12, Luke 2:35).
I think Dr. Hughes' prophecy perhaps shows what many have done (myself included) when receiving impressions from the Spirit----we have often given the message without letting God take us to the heart of the matter, or rather the heart of those we're speaking to. As a result, the things we speak are often more focused on doctrines rather than on the worth of the people we're speaking to. Often this is because many of us often haven't waited to know God's heart and the cry that is in there.
That said, from meeting Dr. Hughes & his wife, I know they've met the Spirit. And so I will pray for them and long for them in the Spirit, and trust that God is able to grant them even more rest than they already know, and that He will floor us all with the love in His Son and the fullness He has given us. And I pray that He helps open our hearts to His heart, so that we may have our hearts broken with the things that break His heart, that we may be so broken with His heart that we are only able to cry with the Spirit as at the end of Revelation, "Come! All you who are thirsty!" |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 481
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 7:56 am: | |
quote:I believe the Hughes' know the Spirit, but at the same time there are a lot of things that can happen which will make our interpretation of what the Spirit says a little funky.
Is that what happened to EGW? Sorry, I couldn't resist. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4106
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:03 am: | |
Ha! (And I can't resist laughing, Raven!)
Colleen |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 74
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:00 pm: | |
Actually, in all seriousness, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened in the beginning. There are many people who have natural spiritual giftings but the interpretation gets warped or confused amidsts the different spirits they can hear from.
For example, a spiritual sensitivity. Have you never talked with anyone who dislikes going near graveyards because they can feel the evil spirits? They have a God-given sensitivity to spirits that not everyone has (I don't, for example). Until they come to Christ it is untamed and the enemy often uses their sensitivity to harass them.
There are many spirits. There is only one Holy Spirit. When you don't know Christ, you don't know 100% how to discern His Spirit from the other voices, so to speak. Yet not being able to correctly identify the Right Spirit does not mean one does not have a spiritual gift.
Perhaps Balaam might be one example in the Bible of someone who had a gift of hearing spirits. At times he was able to hear The Spirit, but his heart was not right, and he used his gift and did more than flirt with other spirits.
I don't know if there's a rule for this, but there are times when a spiritual gift comes after someone receives the Holy Spirit. Then there are times when the gift precedes knowing Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit. I've seen times when gifts seem to be "activated" by the Lord after someone comes to know Him. Then I've known of other times when someone seemed to have been born with a gift, but its true glory was not known into the Lord came into their life and redeemed it. Does this make sense?
So yes, I would say that this is certainly possible for Ellen White. There are a lot of other possibilities for her as well. I don't think we'll ever know how much of what she saw or said was Spirit, flesh, or demonic. (Those, by the way, are the three basic options for any spiritual activity)
Let me end with one more thing: I know it would be much easier and more convenient for us to judge people if we could blanketly say that a person's gift was 100% demonic, 100% flesh or 100% Holy Spirit. But this is most often not the case. There is a mixture present in all human beings, I believe. The fact of this is again seen in Jesus' declarations that many people would do works of the Spirit but without knowing Jesus---they would have the Spirit running through them but would not have a new heart; they would not be "a new creation" in the deepest and most important place. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4109
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:30 pm: | |
Interesting insights, Ramone. I believe, though, that we don't have to be confused about what Spirit/spirit we're "hearing". For those who have accepted Jesus and have committed to serving Him with their lives, the Holy Spirit's voice would be clear. Further, if one did have any confusion, the Bible would certainly be the standard for evaluating any "spiritual impulses".
I think the confusion comes in lives that have some attraction to Jesus but have not committed themselves to Him fully. Judas continues to seem to me to be the prime example of this confusion. He did do works of the Spirit along with the other disciplesóbut those works did not mean he belonged to Jesus.
Since those works were pre-cross, we can infer that the Holy Spirit empowered him (and the other disciples) from "outside" rather than from "inside". I believe that people who have not truly been born again sometimes actually do works of the Holy Spiritóespecially if they are "working for God".
We can be quite sure, based on the Bible, that when we belong to Jesus, we don't have to worry about having both the Holy Spirit and evil spirits working in us. And if a person is working against Jesus and Biblical truth, we can be quite sure that the Holy Spirit is not contributing those activities.
Based on 1 Corinthians 2, especially verses 13-16, we can be certain whether or not a person's teaching and behavior is deceptive or not. Can God do His work through His enemies? Of courseóBalaam and his donkey, for instance. But God's sovereign over-ruling is not confusing. By their fruits we can know them.
Colleen |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 76
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 9:03 am: | |
Amen!
By "confusion", I mean that it is possible for more than one "spirit" to exist in a person at a time. Many Christians would like to think that a person is either all "right" or all "wrong", and they judge things that way.
There is a point when the net effect becomes clear. Example, Ellen White, Joseph Smith, etc.
But there are other times when the Gospel is present in someone, yet there are funky teachings. Examples would include many preachers who preach the Gospel but are very firm about things that cannot be certain.
Listening to Herschel's sermon was interesting. I actually appreciated the *sermon*. The "prophecy" section was the difficult part---not so much because I disagreed with the points mentioned by others in this thread, but rather actually by the spirit of the thing. I don't know how to describe this, but it didn't sound like God when I've heard Him before. (Sorry, no scripture for that!) At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if half or more of those thoughts came from a seed planted by the Spirit. Again, it's possible to give things a fleshy interpretation. I'm saying that to me it sounded like a mixture. The *sermon*, however, was his testimony, and in that I heard God.
Which brings up a strange side point. Sometimes, especially from charismatic teachers, I learn more by the experiences & stories they share than by their "teaching". The teaching trips me up a lot, but the times that I can see God moved---these I learn from much more. I don't always learn the same 'points' they extrapilate, I think.
I think that God speaks sometimes more clearly through testimony than He does through "teaching". Does that make sense? It's similar to the way that He was able to reach many people through parables---often He was able to expose hearts better through parables than by directly saying what was in the pharisees. The point comes through stronger.
In many non-western cultures, this is actually a more common form of learning & teaching---through example and story. It's mainly in western thought that we like to lay out the points & break it down logically & formulaically.
Anyway, I hope that explains what I meant by things getting "confused". They are confused inside a person. But for us, if we look to Christ first and foremost, trust Him, and listen to His Spirit for ourselves, as you said we truly have nothing to worry about. Although someone else may have some "confusion" going on inside, we need not be confused. I think often when we focus on evaluating others that it is then we open ourselves to the same confusion in them. Still at other times, though, I think the Lord can reveal to us when someone else is experiencing confusion between the Spirit and another spirit. He does this not so that we can judge them and thank God we are not confused like they are, but He does this so we may intercede for the person----ask God for His heart for the person and pray for the person. |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 482
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 10:40 am: | |
All I can say is that I'm glad we don't have to sort through "confusion" in the messages God gave through the Bible writers. It seems to me that anytime God specifically wanted to use someone as His special messenger, there was no confusion to sort through. God made sure the message was clear and not contradictory to previous revelation.
I've actually heard SDA's explain that even though EGW was a product of her time, her messages were from God and it's okay to sort through and accept what lines up with the Bible and toss out what doesn't. I just don't see a history of God's messages having to be hulled out through a mass of confusion and contradictions. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4112
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 11:53 am: | |
Raven, I totally agree.
I believe, Ramone, that God can and does use absolutely anything He wishes to reach hearts. That's why some people are blessed by reading The Desire of Ages and why Muslims reading the Koran have prayed to the "prophet" Jesus and have been surprised by have the True God reveal Himself through dreams, etc.
The fact that God can cause people to be drawn to Him through the mouth of a false prophet such as EGW or Muhammed does not mean that the prophet is of God. The Bible is clear how we are to judge prophets and prophecies.
I'm not saying, however, that some people don't have divided hearts, partly drawn to God and reminiscent of His blessings, and partly drawn toward other powers. Again, Judas seemed to be such a person.
And just because a person at a certain time in thier life seems to be spiritually confused doesn't mean they will stay confused. God is at work in them. He only knows the true condition of our hearts.
As for trying to perceive God's word to me, however, I agree with Raven. I don't believe God asks us to "hull out" His messages to us "through a mass of confusion and contradictions."
Colleen |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 79
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| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 10:46 pm: | |
quote:The fact that God can cause people to be drawn to Him through the mouth of a false prophet such as EGW or Muhammed does not mean that the prophet is of God. The Bible is clear how we are to judge prophets and prophecies.
Amen and very true.
I don't think I've touched on saying whether or not a prophet is "of God" or "not of God".
I'm not sure what's being stated, agreed with or disagreed with in the discussion, or the "howevers". I agree with all that everyone's said since I entered this thread. Has something I've said been disagreeable? |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 484
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| | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 5:40 am: | |
I may have misunderstood you Agapetos, but it just sounded like what was being stated is that it's possible for God to specifically send a message through a person for a group, and then that person can thoroughly misinterpret the message until it's more or less error. In which case the only message the people hear has to be waded through to figure out what's truth and what's error. Obviously we always need to compare any message with the Bible to make sure it lines up. But my view is that if it doesn't line up, God hasn't spoken--not God spoke but the person messed it up. I would think that God would have chosen a different person for the message to begin with, or used some other way to make sure the message was error-free. That's the way it seemed to work in the Bible, and that's supposed to be the point of "testing" if a word is from the Lord. |
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4126
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| | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 10:51 am: | |
I agree with Raven, Ramone. No, you've said nothing disagreeable. In fact, I agree with a great deal of your insightsóI haven't often heard anyone discuss this subject with such clarity.
But I do believe that God isn't going to give special revelation to a person who is also receiving input from the "other side". He might put His words in an unwilling person's mouth, as He did Balaam, but He's not going to ask His people to try to figure out which parts of a "prophetic utterance" are from Him and which are not. He makes His revelations clear.
Example: He's not going to give Ellen White (or Joseph Smith or Muhammed, etc.) special revelation for His people while that person is also receiving messages (or making them up) from other sourcesóand then expecting us to figure out which parts are from Him. He won't confuse people.
God might use something a false prophet says to awaken a person to Himóbut that awakening will be because God intervened, not necessarily because the messenger got the message from God.
Does that make sense?
Colleen
|
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 81
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| | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 10:30 pm: | |
Hi Colleen and Raven,
Yes, what you've said makes great sense!
The first thing is that you're right, God doesn't expect people to wade through what words are of Him and what words are not.
Yet I do believe people can receive things from God and be bad or confused stewards with what He's given to them. I can't think of any Biblical support for this at the moment, but I also can't think of any Biblical disagreement with this, either.
Well, there was King Saul prophesying twice. There was also the prophet from Judah who prophesied to Jereboam in Israel and then on his way home, met another prophet who tricked him into disobeying the Lord and was subsequently killed by a lion on the way home. But that's a difficult one to sort out, so I don't think we can make doctrine out of that.
In fact, there is not much we can go on to make doctrine out of prophecy. Prophecy must be interpreted first and foremost by the Gospel, and it is something that the Spirit needs to show you individually.
One of the things I noticed the other night is that even if all of the "proofs" for prophecy are met (i.g., did the prediction come true, etc.), the way we critique generally indicates that even if the proofs were matched, we would still not believe. In other words, if a prophecy meets the "proofs", we may likely still disbelieve. There are always apparent inconsistencies or loopholes seen by those who disbelieve. Take for example Jesus' prophecy about the walls of the temple---today some might doubt its truth because of the wailing wall. Although the wailing wall is part of the base/foundation that Herod the Great erected, some might hear that as a cheap excuse to believe the prophecy. Many prophecies such as those made by Isaiah and many minor prophets were not fulfilled in their days, but after they had passed away. Scoffers in their day could then say that they were false prophets because their predictions did not come true. Not to mention poor Jonah.
Okay, what I'm getting at is that the ultimate "proof" will not be external, but it will be through the Spirit to your spirit. It will be by faith, not by sight. And further, prophecy is something, I think, that generally will benefit most those who *already* believe. Remember how Jesus said, "I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe"?
What I'm learning, again, is that prophecy 1) must be tested by the Gospel. Yet the Gospel itself is by faith. So prophecy is also something that may only be explainable by faith. The Spirit will be the ultimate "revelator" to you about whether a prophecy is of God or not. One famous Christian prophet has talked about the principle of "resonance". When a certain frequency is played, an object such as a glass will shake or even break. When the Spirit speaks to you through another person, it will "resonate" inside of you (after all, it's the same Spirit).
Okay, back to the confusion. (Hmm, that sounds funny)
I said that I do believe people can receive things from God and be bad or confused stewards with what He's given to them. All I can say is that I've seen it happen. I've seen too many people prophesying in the flesh. I've even seen people teaching others how to prophesy that way. And I've done it myself.
One explanation for this is that sometimes people receive what is commonly called "a word of knowledge" about a person. That is, God reveals something supernaturally to a person about another person.
Now here is the point where things can either go right or go wrong.
Properly, the receiver needs to go straight to God with the revelation. Lord, is this You? What would You have me do with this? Sometimes the Lord can give knowledge about someone that you would rather *not* know! Why does He do that? Because He's probably calling you to pray and intercede for the person! After that, He may or may not give you a word that you can tell the person. When delivering it, it's best not to do it with a "thus saith the Lord", of course, but rather sharing it as an impression felt from the Lord, not a judgment, but rather... how can I pray for you and stand with you? He calls us to carry each others' burdens, and I believe one reason He gives us "words of knowledge" is for that purpose. Often we're locked inside our own thoughts, essentially fighting our battles on our own, and we need support.
But often what happens instead is that someone receives an impression from the Spirit and turns it into a prophecy. Again, I can only say that I've seen this done. I've had it done to me. I was taught how to do it at one church. They actually believed that this was how to prophesy. I think I might not have known the difference except that before I attended that church, I had received prophecy that shook my whole being inside, so to speak. I've met a few people who I believe have clear prophetic gifts, and who have a calling as a prophet. When I went to the church, however, it was different. They prophesied as if they were in a hurry. And they taught you to prophesy the same way. Those who excelled at this, I believe, may have had a gift of receiving "words of knowledge", but it was improper to turn it into a prophetic utterance. It mixed what God had given with the flesh.
The result?
Well, leaving out a lot of things in between, I left the church. They've still held onto the gospel, but there is too much flesh being taught as prophecy. It's generally not making new doctrines, but there is a problem with authority (not extra-biblical, but rather in the church's "government"). They had six good principles for testing a prophecy, but because of the way things were done in a hurry, they weren't effectively used.
Another thing to remember is that God speaks through people, and people are different. In other words, if someone studies out of the King James Bible, that person will likely hear from the Lord in King James style English, just as the person probably prays in the same kind of English. Each person is like a filter. God pours something in, and it will take some characteristics of the vessel it comes through. Or rather, like water, it takes the shape of its container. Mark liked to use the word "immediately", Paul liked to say "But now" a lot, and John used a lot of simple mathematic-like language (this is this, and so... etc.). The same may be true with prophecy.
At this point you may be thinking, "Well, then why the heck should we call it prophecy?" or "But they didn't have that kind of trouble in the Bible!"
Yes and no.
There's a lot of difficulty understanding this because there's so much confusion in the Body, and particularly for us who've come out of a church that had built itself on a false prophet's testimonies. For us it's easier to ignore prophecy altogether for fear of being deceived again. But the Gospel is given to set us free from all of this.
A great need is to understand the covenants, and then to see additionally that prophecy is different in the times of the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant. The purposes of the Spirit (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:8-15, 1 Cor.2:12) are the purposes of prophecy.
Here, let's also say this: "the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus." Not the 'spirit' as if there is a separate 'spirit' for each gift---there is One Spirit who expresses Himself through many gifts. There are many gifts, but One Spirit. The same Spirit that was in the prophets of old, in the apostles, in Christ----that same Spirit is in you and me. Further, other words for 'spirit' in Greek include "inner life, essence, disposition, state of mind, etc." So the text can read, "the essence of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus." It's saying the same thing as the other verses---that the purpose of prophecy is the same as that of the Spirit: it is to testify about Jesus.
We have a lot of trouble when we approach prophecy expecting it to be like the words of Moses, or when we expect a prophet to be as perfect or accurate as Moses or Elijah. No! God does not intend for us to hang on every word and follow the person around, waiting to hear from God through that person. Rather, God has given us a new covenant where we don't have to depend on a person to intercede between us and God. Christ has become that to us now, and "they all will know Me" as God said. One Christian prophet had a vision of Jesus saying this to him: "I didn't say 'Those who are led by the prophets are the sons of God', but I said 'those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God'."
God still does give prophecy, and there are prophets, but the purpose is not the same as it was in the days of the Old Covenant. Instead everything is to draw us into deeper personal relationship with Christ. Why does He give prophecy, then? I think we need to individually ask Him, because there is a reason, but I can't explain it... He can explain that a lot better, and shoot, I don't know anyway. One reason, I think, is similar to how He uses dreams. Dreams often function like parables---He can show you something about yourself or your situation that you might not recognize if He said it straightly to you. The illustration can help you "see".
Okay, anyway, God has put the manifested gifts of His Spirit in the Body, however there is great fear of them because there has been so much abuse and error. The biggest single reason, I believe, is that the Gospel is polluted. Not that I'm perfect or anyone really is, but there is a proper perspective of seeing things through the Gospel which is often not clearly known.
There is also the sad belief that the manifested gifts of the Spirit are special and uncommon. If that is often true, it is because we often believe it and thus prevent it. In Luke it was said that Jesus could not do many miracles in one town because of the peoples' lack of faith. If we don't believe He can move that way and reveal Himself to us as He promised, then I think to an extent we put up a wall that He generally may not break through---let's say that He tries to use the "front door" as much as possible.
Sorry I've gone all over the place in this post! |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 82
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| | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 10:35 pm: | |
P.S. Something else I'm noticing after having talked with you all about this: Prophecy is not additive so much as it is reductive. In other words, it is not given to add teachings, but it is given usually to reduce us to Christ. It's given to remove obstacles out of the way of us resting in Christ and looking to Him in the simple faith of a child. Prophecy is one of God's ways of calling us back to Him when we have wandered from "the Way"---that is, from Christ Himself. Usually we wander away from Him Himself by going off into a lot of teachings and other things, etc. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4130
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| | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 11:19 pm: | |
Really great summary, Ramone!
Colleen |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 87
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 7:07 am: | |
After work tonight I was praying and thought about what I'd written earlier & the whole topic. I thought of 1st Corinthians 14 where Paul says to earnestly desire to prophesy, and suddenly I felt I understood from the Lord something very basic about this:
In 1 Cor.14, Paul is urging the church at Corinth to seek prophecy instead of tongues. But what is "a prophecy"? It's what the Lord is speaking. Prophesying is speaking the Lord's word. Instead of seeking to speak to each other in tongues, the Spirit (through Paul) is urging us to seek the Lord's word for each other!
He's urging us to ask Him for His word for our brother, for our sister. He's urging us to seek His heart for our brother, for our sister. He wants us to seek His heart for each other.
This is the "heart" of prophecy in the Church. It's not about seeking a gift, but rather about seeking the Lord on behalf of one another. He wants us to seek what's on His heart for each other, to receive it, and then to share it and bless one another.
I was blessed to understand this. God is wonderful. He had Paul urge the Corinthians to seek prophecy so that they would seek Him, His heart, and in so doing bless one another and share in agape love---love which "seeks not its own"---is it any wonder that this comes right after the "love chapter"!!
Still more wonderful is the promise behind this: God wants us to seek His heart for one another, and He does not call us to seek that which we may not find, so He is promising that if we seek His heart for one another, He will reveal His heart for us, for us ourselves, and for one another. He is so awesome, so loving, so full of agape love! It's all about His love, His love for us, and His love driving us to love one another---and in so doing, share in the blessing of His love, discovering His joy of why it is truly "better" to give than to receive. |
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