| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4037
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 1:54 pm: |     |
That's a great insight, Jackob. Yes, JoyceóI agree; our personal beliefs do not mean we cannot be loving to one another. I do understand your desire to be affirmed and understood in this very deep area of pain and identity.
I encourage you to simply accept our understanding of your past and our compassion for your present questions and pain. Even if we cannot affirm your understanding of God at this point, we do value you and respect you. You and your understandings are not synonymous. We do not reject you just because we do not personally accept your spiritual beliefs.
Again, we're glad you're still here!
Colleen |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 5:06 pm: | |
I do think it's the same God that we all believe in though because I think there's only one God. We just define and think of it differently. I even think that other religions like Islam and Hinduism (which has minor 'gods', but still believes in one Ultimate Reality--Brahman) believe in the same God. Even though these very different religions may define God in a different way. Rather like the old story of the blind men and the elephant, if anyone's heard of that one.
I know I've heard some people say, though, that their God is not the same as the God of other religions. I guess you're right. At some point we have to all just agree that we don't agree, and leave it at that. Perhaps in my quest for 'understanding' by other people, I need to take this limitation into consideration, and I need to look at how these people treat me, rather than what they may believe or what they think of my own beliefs. This isn't always easy, is it?
Joyce |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4039
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:30 pm: | |
You're right, Joyceóit's not easy! I've heard the elephant illustrationóit's a good illustration for a lot of reality! In thinking about God, however, I do think there are some definable differences between the True God and the "other gods".
One of the biggest differences, I believe, is that the True God doesn't control us with fear. Another difference is that the True God actually takes responsibility for avenging the unrepentant who have hurt us and also for redeeming our pain. "Other gods" expect obeisance, suffering, sometimes soul-crushing and compulsive efforts to please themóand sometimes they are distant and casual, apearing to offer an eternal band-aid on everyone's brokenness without healing the brokenness.
One of the insights I had when I watched Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ a couple of years ago occurred during that nearly intolerable scene of Jesus' scourging. I realized at that point that Jesus didn't just take the world's sins onto Himself and die for them; He took every bit of our suffering onto Himself and redeemed it.
As I saw that flogging, I had such a palpable sense that Jesus willingly took into Himself all the abuse and sin perpetrated against me and other victims of human evilówhich actually includes everyone at some point in life. Without His intervention, our pain would just be unresolvable suffering. By taking not only my sin but the sins done against me into Himself, He gives me hope and the possibility of healing.
So, I see the True God as being the One who meets us in our painóas opposed to condmenming us to our pain unless we toe the markóand walking with me through it, giving me His strength and the promise that I will emerge with healing instead of perpetual brokenness.
Yes, I agree--there is only One Godóbut there are imposters who claim "godhood". They, however, do not offer us a rescue. They tantalize, but they do not personally involve themsleves in our suffering and transform it into victory and strength. They offer distraction and methods of management, but they offer no cure.
I guess in a nutshell this fundamental difference is how I distinguish between the True God and the imposters. And, by the by, I do not believe that everyone who claims to know the True God really does. I believe that many within Adventism and other groups such as LDS, JW, and even many who are in Christian churches do not really know the true God. They may know about Him or know His names, but they have never really met the real God of the Bible. They have been introduced to a deception, but not to the real Person.
There is much confusion over Who God is and what He is like. But when we truly wish to find Him, He has promised that He will reveal Himself.
Colleen |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:44 pm: | |
Hi Joyce
A friend of mine recently reminded me of how totally God has committed himself to the salvation of each person, permitting his own son to suffer for us. You are by no means alone in your frustration. I can tell you honestly that I am so heartbroken and frustrated with God over some issues in my own life that I can hardly speak to him about them. And yet, I cannot deny my love for the Lord Jesus Christ. It's been two years since I left adventism, and I cannot begin to describe the change that has come into my life since I left. I delayed leaving adventism for years because I don't take such decisions lightly, but God waited until after I had left to really open the floodgates of peace in my life. Is everything perfect now? hardly! but he has given me a deep and abiding peace. I never realized that such peace could exist. Yes, we have all been hurt by the confusion of adventism, and it takes a long time to heal. But I praise God for these last two years, the best years of my life. I am so thankful to the Lord Jesus Christ for the life he is living in me (I do not boast about myself in saying this--it's all of Jesus and none of me). It's made a real difference in my life, and I think I am beginning to heal from the spiritual abuse that I had come to accept as normal.
Please don't give up on us. People like me need people like you. I've been blessed just knowing that you are writing so honestly--from your heart, and I think that many other readers on this forum would agree. Frankly, I don't think our frustrations are too big for God. I just want everything to be better right now, too! I hope you will read between the lines in what I'm saying and that you will sense that you are among friends here. I feel safe here, and I think you should (feel safe), too. I write this kindly, and hope you will recieve it that way.
Bob |
Cw
Registered user
Username: Cw
Post Number: 66
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:08 pm: | |
Joyce, I've been out of town for a few days so I have just spent the last 20 minutes or so catching up on this thread. A post you made a few days ago really hit home and I could see me writing the same words but from 180 degrees away. You may know that I am one of the few Non-Formers on this forum and what you say about those here not understanding your differences is understandable. It is EXACTLY how infuriated I get when I think about my daughter dating an Adventist and possibly she may become one to keep from losing him. He has made it clear to D that it will be his way or no way if they marry. My attitude (and this is where I believe I empathize with you) is that he will teach my grand children that he is righteous enough for Heaven but that my wife and I are not because we are not like him. That's when I start wanting to use multiple !!!!!! and ?????? like you did in your May 24th post. It's an "how dare you say your doctrine is holier than mine???!!! frustration.
I enjoy your different views and your boldness in speaking them and I hope you stay. There is Absolute Truth however and I believe that as long as you are truly seeking it God will shine through to you.
God bless CW |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 94
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:31 pm: | |
Hi Joyce,
I visited your Yahoo! group, and really enjoyed your posts. Your posts, both here and there, are always so honest and real. You articulate your feelings so well, that I really capture your joys, your frustrations, your epiphanies, as well as your questions. You express from the heart; that's so refreshingly awesome.
Joyce, I TOTALLY understand you and where you're coming from. I get you. I really, honestly do.
For a long time, God was more of this "entity" to me. He was this presence, but not something really real that I felt I could adequately know. Because of this vagueness, when I started questioning Adventism, I really struggled with agnostic leanings. When all of my pillars of faith (which were based on the 27 fundamental beliefs) collapsed, I began to wonder whether the God thing was going to turn out to be unreal also. I questioned everything. I got to the point of rationalizing that belief in God was a human defense method of survival. That belief in a God improved our lives, gave us hope, but really it was more of this vague tooth fairy, santa clausish belief that may improve our lives just by their "existence", but nothing really concrete or real. I believed that denominations and religions were mere support groups for humans to build their "faith" in this desire and survival need to believe in a god. I believed that everyone had their own idea of God that worked for them and their way of thinking, personality types, or whatever... Basically God became a customizable entity.
Joyce, I know everyone's journey is different, and that none of us has arrived at our destination yet. I can only tell you where my journey lead me (my state described above was in 2001), and I praise God every single day that I am His work in progress -- and that He wasn't done with me yet.
Like you, I had this super annoying, irresistable desire to keep trying to find understanding, comfort, and affirmation from someone. But all I kept hearing was that Jesus is the ONLY way, truth, and life--and I knew if that was the case, I was in trouble because I couldn't bring myself to honestly believe that. I really wanted to (and often pretended to), but deep down I just couldn't. And no one in the world could have convinced me of it. The only One who could convince me was God Himself, and I knew (or thought I knew) that that wasn't going to ever happen. But it did.
He began to reveal Himself in such a real and profound way, that I get emotional just thinking about it. It wasn't sudden by any means, and actually, not until this last year could I honestly feel, in the deepest part of me, that Jesus Christ was truly my Lord and Saviour, and He LIVES IN me, ever changing me.
This "feeling" is not just a feeling, and it's not just a belief. It's a very real, and concrete thing. It's not just choosing to believe in something in hopes of it being the right thing. It's not just a metaphorically, sounds good, give you warm fuzzy feelings faith. This faith completely altered my life from the inside out. It is life changing.
I'm not writing this to say you should be where I am, or you will end up eventually where I am, or whatever.... Like I said, no one could have convinced me of it. But your journey, and my journey is not through yet. I am so EXCITED about what God has yet to reveal in my life about Himself, as well as yours, Joyce.
Keep up that insatiable desire to seek out the truth. I love how you read everything for yourself rather than take someone's word on it. I'm pretty obsessive about that myself  .
I hope you feel safe here and continue to share with us. This forum has helped me in so many ways in the short time I've been a member, even though I tend to be more "silent" than others. Know too, that the reality of God often brings out this "passion" in people that can often be mistaken for "you need to believe this and see it my way". Trust me, the passion is sincere and done in love, even though it may not always come out that way.
Grace
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Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 95
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:02 am: | |
As I was getting ready for bed tonight, I heard the song "God Bless the Broken Road" by Selah (single was released in February, but album will be released in Fall). I've heard this song many times sung by Rascal Flatts (country band), but never heard it before as a Christian song on a Christian radio station. Musically, it's a really beautiful song. The piano part and harmony is great. But I never paid attention to the lyrics until tonight. It fits pretty well as a Christian song and not just a love song. One of the singers said this about the song: "God's path for our lives is perfect, no matter how long or how broken the road seems to be." Amen to that. God's sovereignty is so comforting and reassuring, and His carved out path for us is so perfect. As I think back on all the ways God was using "northern stars" to point to Him, I get choked up. We serve an awesome God!
Here are the lyrics:
I set out on a narrow way, many years ago
Hoping I would find true love, along the broken road
But I got lost a time or two
Wiped my brow and kept pushing through
I couldn't see how every sign, pointed straight to you
Every long lost dream lead me to where you are
Others who broke my heart, they were like northern stars
Pointing me on my way, into your loving arms
This much I know is true
That God blessed the broken road
That lead me straight to you
I think about the years I spent, just passing through
I'd like to have the time I lost, and give it back to you
But you just smile and take my hand
You've been there you understand
It's all part of a grander plan, that is coming true
Every long lost dream, lead me to where you are
Others who broke my heart, they were like northern stars
Pointing me on my way, into your loving arms
This much I know is true
That God blessed the broken road
That lead me straight to you
Now I'm just rolling home
Into my lovers arms
This much I know, is true
That God blessed the broken road
That lead me straight to you
That God blessed the broken road
That lead me straight
to you
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4043
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
Grace, thank you for sharing those lyrics. Reading them and thinking back over the anxious years and broken dreams and deep searching for meaning makes me want to cry. I realize now that the deep drive I had to know God and to serve Jesus (whatever that meantófor years I no idea how to "make it happen") was the desire planted in my heart by God Himself from my earliest life.
His sovereign call on my life is what awoke in me the desire to know truth and to know Him. He calls people from whatever milieu they're in, and he awakens us in His way and in His time.
Colleen |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 7:24 pm: | |
Thanks, Grace, for posting the lyrics. I love that song. I used to think about what it would have been like if I'd left Adventism earlier, or had never been an Adventist, but in God's sovereign plan that spiritual broken road was part of his "grander plan" for me. Like Colleen said "in His way and in His time" He called me. There were also blessings along the way. Meeting my husband, long time friends, etc.
God blessed the broken road
that lead me straight to
You. Thank you Jesus! |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 6:31 am: | |
Hello folks, I took a break for a day---work has been so hectic for the past three weeks, people on vacation, etc---I did a wonderful 'sleepthrough' last night (came home from work at 5:00 p.m., lay down for a 'nap' and slept right through until this morning. Sometimes we just need to lay it all aside and rest.
I'm so appreciative of the support so many of you have shown me since my desperate outburst on Wednesday. I was feeling mighty frustrated at that point. But as several people have pointed out, we are all at different paths along our journey through life. It stands to reason that we are not all going to see things in the same way. When I came to this forum what I was looking for was support and understanding, not necessarily agreement, and now I see that I can receive that here, we do share much in common, even those whose beliefs differ greatly from my own. Even the fact that I don't have 'beliefs' so much as ideas---that is such a different concept from those who are sure and certain and very decided about where they are.
I don't mind the uncertainty. I gives a very different 'flow' to life, I'm able to get a taste of so many new ideas that I would never have had in SDAism. And my life is very happy and joyful, compared to what it was even a few years ago. I suppose this is what we're all seeking.
So thank you to so many of you: Cathy and Lori, Colleen, Grace, Bob, CW, others who have chosen to email me privately---I really appreciate your support. I will try not to stir things up so much on this forum--I will save my more 'controversial' stuff for my own group. I really am not here to argue, but I do love to share with anyone who is interested in bouncing around ideas that are non-traditional. So, if that's you interest, feel free to email me uppitywomyn@yahoo.com or visit my yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DareToQuestion_DareToFly/ even if just to lurk. I don't want to misrepresent myself here, or pretend to be someone I'm not, but I understand if most of the folks here prefer to discuss issues from a traditional Christian viewpoint. So, that's why I chose to make my group 'open' so that people can go read the messages, even if they are not interested in joining. That way you can find out just who I am, without the disruption to this forum.
Thanks again, everyone,
Joyce |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 8:14 am: | |
Jackob,
I realize I didn't acknowledge you in my previous post, but I did want to say that I appreciated what you had to say. We can disagree, and reject each other's viewpoints about God, or any other issues, and that doesn't mean that we have to reject or condemn each other. You are so right. Sometimes it is hard to grasp what the other person is describing, especially when it can be such a very personal thing. So I thank you for your input as well. I think it's when we feel condemned as individuals---not only for our beliefs, but for who we are as a person---that we have hurt feelings and feel that we are being attacked.
For as bad as I was feeling about all this a few days ago, I really think it is turning out quite well and we all really are just trying to understand each other. And I've learned a good lesson from it: we really can be friends and even share some of our deepest thoughts with those who disagree with us, as long as we can continue to feel respected and not dismissed by the other. That's the really hard part, isn't it?
Joyce |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2557
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 9:03 am: | |
Joyce,
I am glad you decided to keep coming back.
It is not to hard to understand where you are, as my favorite sister feels similar to what you feel and think about God and religion. She feels the way she does because of the way my "Christian Mother", her step mom treated her and her brother when her Dad married my Mom. I can accept her the way she is, because I love her very much and she accepts me for the same reason. We are poles apart with religion and politics. But we get along. We even went on a one week cruise together last Sept and this coming Aug we are going on another cruise, staying in the same cabin. We both belong to a 12 step program and I know that has helped me not only accept my sister and every one that comes into my life. I thank God for that.
One thing my sister and I have learned is that we can respect each other because we know the other one will listen, even when we do not agree.
I am glad you continue to come around. I will lurk at your web site.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4049
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 2:59 pm: | |
Joyce, I've also been lurking at your web site, and I'm glad that you feel safe to hang with us! We are glad to have you here, and we do understand what you're feeling.
Thanks for being honest and for sticking with us.
Colleen |
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