| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 94 Registered: 8-2008 |
Anyone know of good books or articles explaining the Trinity? I know I was taught tri-theism when I was an SDA, and now when I study the Trinity I have such a hard time understanding it. Anyone have any resources? | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2008 |
I'm not familiar with Tri-theism! Is that really taught by SDAs? I always thought of the Trinity as like being an egg!! There are three distinct parts: the shell, the white part and then the yolk. All three are separate pieces that have their separate purpose. But, they can be used together. They all compromise of one thing - the egg! They are three distinct parts but compromise of one entity. I don't know! This analogy always helped me wrap my mind around the three-in-one trinity concept. How they work together, why, and their functions through the Old and New Testament . . . well, that will take, I think, an eternity to completely understand!! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2556 Registered: 10-2004  |
Bskillet, There are some links that I posted in these two posts of mine from awhile back that you might find helpful: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/6859.html#POST90804 http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/6846.html#POST90815 Some of things that helped me the most in understanding the Trinity, were the concepts of incorporeality (God is a Spirit, and does not, by nature, have a body), perichoresis (explanation linked to in the links above) and "divine simplicity" (the doctrine that God does not have parts--He is one simple Being, and not a composite, or aggregate, being made up of parts). Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2557 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Daisie_girl, You wrote:
Yes, that is the official, traditional, and fundamental teaching of Adventism.
What you've just described above basically sounds like the Adventist version of Tritheism. What Adventism calls the "Trinity" is not the same doctrine as the historical, orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Therefore, Adventism and Christianity actually have two opposing doctrines that they both call the "Trinity." The SDA doctrine is actually basically identical to the Mormon doctrine of "the Godhead" (and sometimes the Mormons will also use the word "Trinity" to describe their own teaching). What you've described above basically sounds like the SDA teaching of three separate beings who all work together. That is not what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches. The doctrine of the Trinity is that God is one Being, who exists as three distinct, but not separate, persons (hypostases in the Greek). For example, Jesus is not just "one third" of "God"--but instead He is fully (all of) God. In Adventism, we were taught that Jesus was simply one third of the "Godhead"--which was defined as a "group" of three divine beings (gods). That is polytheism (more than one god), and is specifically called Tritheism (three gods). God is one single spirit being ("without body or parts" as one Christian creed puts it), and within that one Being there are three personal distinctions (but not separate parts). Adventism, from its foundation, has been unable to teach this because they believe that God the Father has a separate physical body that looks like Jesus' body (Ellen White's "Jesus" told her this in vision). Thus, they have always taught polytheism. For more on this, you can check out the article in the May/June 2007 Proclamation! entitled "Discovering the Adventist Jesus" at the following link (starting on page 10): http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2007_MayJun.pdf (And you can also check out the links that I posted above for Bskillet, one of which links to the July/August 2007 Proclamation!, which has a good explanation of the Trinity in the "Editor's note" under "Trinity Question" in "Letters to the Editor" starting on page 22.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 23, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9177 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thanks, Jeremy, for the great answers. Daisy-girl, I always thought that "Jesus is fully God" meant the same sort of thing as "that piece of pie is fully apple pie". In other words, my piece of pie is fully apple pie, but it's only the specific ingredients that happen to be in that piece. For example, there might be a seed in my piece and nowhere else in the pie...but even though my piece might have some components different from the rest of the pie (or vice-verse), my piece is still fully "Apple Pie"! I used to think of Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit the same way. Sure, they were all "fully God", but that only meant they were part of the same metaphorical "gene pool". But what "Jesus is fully God" really means is that He has within Himself ALL the attributes of all of God--not merely part of God. Colossians 1:19 says, in speaking of the Lord Jesus, "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him"--meaning the fulness of God--and this is referring to his incarnation, not merely to his pre-incarnate state. There is no attribute of God which is not in Jesus which is not in the Holy Spirit. They each have different roles and relationships within the Trinity, but they all are Fully God!! Remember Isaiah 9:6? For unto us a child will be born, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. The Baby, Jesus, would be called "Counselor" (Jesus' word for the Holy Spirit), "Mighty God"--and, of all things, "Everlasting Father"! All of God's attributes are in Jesus. He is not merely "fully God" in the sense that He's undiluted; He's fully God in the sense that ALL of God's attributes are in Him. He has everything in the whole pie in Him--as does the Father and the Holy Spirit! Colleen | ||
| Lifeanew Registered user Username: Lifeanew Post Number: 181 Registered: 10-2007 |
Wow! Thank you so much Jeremy and Colleen for discussing this. I had no idea and can't wait to share this with my husband. Amazing. Jan | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2008 |
Amazing texts and information! I'm going to read more into it!! I was raised in a Pentocostal Assembly of God church. There were some huge fallacies within their doctrine and I never thought that my understanding of the Trinity was perhaps wrong. I understand that they are all distinctly God! Completely and 100%! Wrapping my mind around that concept though, for me, is really hard. I guess, what I'd like to know is what was the Holy Spirit and Christ doing in the Old Testament? I mean, I can see them all three being active in the New Testament. Am I looking through a wrong lense still? I know God sent an "Angel" before the Isrealites to help lead them. There's been debate on whether that angel was Christ incarnate, if it was Christ or simply just an Angel. Any other thoughts are most welcome  ! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2558 Registered: 10-2004 |
Daisie_girl, You asked:
Since the Holy Spirit is fully God, then whenever it says that God did anything in the OT, that was the Holy Spirit. Since Christ is fully God, then whenever it says that God did anything in the OT, that was Christ. "for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19b NASB.) There is only one God--one Divine Being. Daisie_girl, you mentioned being raised in a Pentecostal AOG church. I'm curious, do you know if your church, or pastor, was involved in the Word of Faith movement at all (Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch/TBN, etc.)? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 23, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9183 Registered: 12-2003 |
Also, Daisie_girl, God manifested Himself to Israel in the form of a cloud. The cloud that led them through the wilderness was God, and God manifested Himself in a cloud when His presence settled into the Most Holy Place in the tabernacle and later in the temple. In fact, God's personal presence in Israel was what gave such power to His Mosaic covenant with them. He didn't just give them a law and leave them on their own. Along with the law, He gave them His own literal presence in their midst in the form of the shekinah glory (the cloud of His presence) in the temple. Israel was the only nation to have the literal presence of God among them. His revelation of Himself through the covenant and law only had significance and power in the context of His revelation and commitment of Himself to live among them. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3894 Registered: 9-2006  |
Daise_girl, You stated that you were raised in a Pentecostal Assembly of God church. You stated there “are some huge fall fallacies with-in their doctrine.” Could you state these specific fallacies? I belong to the Assembly's of God at this time which seems to be different than the Pentecostal Assembly of God. Is the Pentecostal Assembly of God a one-ness church? Since there are folk on this net and more coming all the time who are looking for a place to worship, then when you make the statement such as “huge fallacies” then we need to look at those “huge fallacies”. I am of the opinion that a large part of the ministry of this forum is too bring some of these “huge fallacies” under the light of scripture so everybody can see. It seems obvious to me that there are many evangelical churches represented here who differ slightly in doctrine. For instance there is the Calvin view and the Arminain view. These are world views. Basically in the general evangelical realm, evangelicals can be broken down into four parts of a whole namely this: 1. Believe that Christ died and rose the third day. 1 Cor 15:1 and Romans 10: 9,10 2. Sola fide, by faith alone. 3. Christ deity. 4. Absolute and complete atonement for our sins at the cross. These are the four basic doctrines of the Christian faith. Anything that goes contrary to this is a “huge (gigantic) (colossal) (massive) fallacy (erroneous) (myth) (misleading)” About a year ago I came to the conclusion that God delivers folk out of Adventism and shall I say “Sprinkles” the evangelical churches with them.” ? Now I could be very wrong in that concept. The people that come out of Adventism could fall into various churches just by pure accident of situation. Its just that I can’t resolve in my own mind that God would lead someone out of a cult and then abandon them to fall where-ever they may lie. At any rate you have my full attention. What is the huge fallacies that we should be warned away from? River | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2008 |
Jeremy, yes my church was involved with that. In fact, when we left, the church was going into Brownsville Revival type stuff - i.e. "laughing in the spirit", "barking in the spirit", being "slained in the spirit". They were huge about "name it and claim it" type doctrines! My mom and I used to watch TBN, er what we liked to call "The Big Hair Channel" a lot. They have some good programs, but prayer cloths, placing your hands on the screen for healing, and sending money to Benny Hinn's Rolls Royce don't necessarily align with the message of Christ and salvation. Colleen, I guess my struggle has been that if it says "God", I only picture "God the Father". I never visualized all three having an active part all at the same time. I think that's where the faulty view is, on my part. I see them as distinct persons, all God of course, but three entities! This is definitely a topic that is worth exploring for my own understanding and growth!! I just pray that I am open and pliable to what the Holy Spirit wants to show me! River, I am sorry that I made that generalization. I apologize! Please forgive me! Not all AOG churches are like that! Believe me, my upbringing church was elemental in my growth. However, within that specific church in Washington, I was taught that Salvation was by works, that I could mess up and not receive God's love, that I was responsible for saving people, that God was up there with a big judgment stick waiting to punish those who were disobedient. To me, those doctrines are huge fallacies for they simply ignore for core beliefs that you mention above!! They made me and many others fearful of God, made us walk around with huge guilt trips for not attending Church every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night and any other event that the church held, rededicating my life to Christ at every altar call because I listened to some secular music and shouldn't have - it hindered me from seeing the God of the Bible. I do apologize if I have offended anyone. Please know that wasn't my intention! I praise the Lord that He showed me what His grace, His Holy Spirit of promise, His unconditional love is all about! When the Lord led my family away from that Church, I can't tell you how a huge burden was lifted off my shoulders after that point! To think that God loved me for me, was overwhelming and I still can't fully comprehend that. Again, I am sorry!! I don't want to single out or make anyone feel attacked for their church family! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2559 Registered: 10-2004 |
Daisie_girl, you're right that not all AOG churches are the same. The reason I asked about TBN/the Word of Faith movement, is that many Faith teachers (especially Benny Hinn) have been known for teaching Tritheism, rather than the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. So it doesn't surprise me that the church you were raised in was influenced by them. There are certainly many other problems with that movement as well, as you mentioned above. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3898 Registered: 9-2006 |
Daisie_girl, I didn’t take that as offensive just in case you think I did. I honestly don’t know the teachings of the Pentecostal Assembly of God. The Assembly’s of God are a different organization. The Assembly’s of God (or) AOG are an organization formed chiefly to assist and send out missionaries. The individual churches are pretty much free to conduct themselves as they see fit. They are charismatic churches though. The name sounds the same, but the two are not the same. What you described looks nothing like what I have ever heard of an AOG teaching. I think what you are talking about is a strain of charismatic which I would coin with the phrase as “Holiness churches” or just plain "Holiness" In other words “We don’t smoke and we don’t chew and we don’t go with the girls that do.” They’ll have you warming your feet over hell fire for spitting on the sidewalk. Sorry you had to be raised up in that kind of mess. They are kind of amusing to me and they seem to be the first to fall for the Torontos of this world and spend every dime they got to go flying clean across the country to find something like that. Makes me tempted to dress up in a devil costume and go down there and walk in the door, but as sure as I did some old lady would fall over with a heart attack!! Of course I don’t guess it’s very amusing when your raised up in it. Now take Adventism, that’s a huge fallacy in my mind. That I’ll divide over, the Holiness stuff, no I won’t divide over. Besides all that I am sitting here in the office watching the snow come down and typing on the key board. Methinks I will close the office about noon as I ain’t seen a soul around here all morning. I’m just sitting here twiddling my thumbs anyhow. River Jeremy described it well, many other problems. Good Grief the snows coming down heavy!! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1451 Registered: 11-2005 |
Chris Lee had an excellent series on the Trinity that he posted on these forums. I believe that they were going to get published in Proclamation or somewhere. Colleen may have the links. Gilbert | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2008 |
So, I am still trying to wrap my feeble mind around the concept of the Trinity. Maybe you guys can help answer some of these questions or provide other sources where I can do research: 1. John 5:16-23 Christ is referring to His Father here, how He "cannot do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do". He goes on to say in verse 20 that "the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does". Was Christ explaining His deity in a way that people could understand? Since the trinity are all three God, then how is it that Christ sets apart His Father as loving Him? He loves Himself? On Christ's own, He can do nothing without the Father . . . does that mean due to His human nature? 2. John Chapter 17 I love this chapter. It's the only account of what Christ was completely praying that night before His crucifixion. What I am trying to understand is that when Christ was praying to the Father, was He simply, with the concept of them all being one, perfect God, praying to Himself? 3. Luke 23:46 Christ is on the cross dying. Before He breathes His last, He says "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." There is still only one God. The "s" isn't capitalized here, so I don't think that Christ is referring to the Holy Spirit . . . what is He referring to then? His soul? But if God is in heaven, isn't His soul already there? (Maybe another topic - does God have a soul?) I guess, from reading the Bible for so long with the concept that the triune God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all had distinct roles and are three, unique manifestions of the same God. I've thought they were separate my whole life and wrapping my mind around the conecpt that they are all the same, all acting at the same time, being present at the same time is something that my three-dimensional brain is struggling with. I always thought that when Christ was on earth, God the Father and the Holy Spirit were hanging out in heaven. Then when Christ ascended to heaven, He hung out with the Father while the Holy Spirit descended upon mankind at Pentecost. I don't mean to sound sacriligious at all . . . I'm just trying to understand the way that God wants me to! Thanks for all your patience! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2563 Registered: 10-2004 |
Daisie_girl, Those are some very good questions. 1. I do believe that Jesus is referring to His deity in the John 5 passage, because according to the context it is an explanation to the Jews who wanted to kill Him "because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (verse 18). And then verse 19 starts out with "Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them," So, He is explaining His deity to them in light of His previous claims that made them angry. I believe He is speaking about things in "eternity" (meaning outside of time/timelessness). One aspect of the doctrine of the Trinity is the eternal generation of the Son (See more here and here). In other words, since the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, He says that "the Son can do nothing of Himself." This actually is not "separating" Himself from the Father, rather it must be true if there is only one God. If God is one God, then the Son cannot doing anything "apart from" the Father. But remember, since God is outside time, these things that Jesus describes in verses 19 and beyond are not things that are happening in time or temporal sequence, but rather in eternity/timelessness. In fact, verse 26 only makes sense within the understanding of the eternal generation of the Son. Jesus says in verse 26: "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;" He doesn't just say that the Son also has life in Himself, but that the Father "gave to the Son also to have life in Himself." And yet we know that Jesus is eternal and that He is God Himself and, from this very verse, that He has life in Himself "just as the Father has life in Himself"! So, the only way that this makes sense is eternal generation. 2. When Jesus prayed, He was praying to His Father. Again, the concept of the eternal generation of the Son helps us to understand how God is one Being, who exists as three distinct, but not separate, persons. However, in the sense that God is one and that "in Him [Christ] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9), then yes in that sense you would have to say that He was praying to Himself, in regard to His being, but He was praying to the distinct person of the Father. Also, we must remember that Jesus was a man (while still God) when He was praying. (And let me mention that He still is fully human, just so no one thinks I'm implying otherwise!) 3. In Luke, Christ is referring to His physical, human death, and is therefore referring to His human spirit. His spirit departed His body when He died, just like our spirit departs our body when we die. 4. Jesus Christ is omnipresent (present everywhere)--He always has been and always will be. It is one of the attributes of God, and His attributes are eternal and unchangeable. (Adventism denies that Jesus is omnipresent after His incarnation.) So, Jesus was always in heaven, even while on earth. In fact, the KJV/NKJV translations even state that fact explicitly in John chapter 3: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13 NKJV.) Since God is omnipresent and He is one simple Being, then all of the following must be true: Wherever the Father is, so is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Wherever Jesus is, so is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Wherever the Holy Spirit is, so is the Father and Jesus. Jesus isn't just hanging out in heaven while the Holy Spirit indwells humans. Jesus Himself is indwelling us! The Bible states this fact in several places. Here are just some of the passages which show that Jesus is omnipresent and that He indwells believers: John 1:45-50, John 14:23, Matthew 18:20, Matthew 28:20, Ephesians 1:23, Ephesians 3:17, Ephesians 4:10, Colossians 1:17, Colossians 1:27, Colossians 3:11, and Galatians 2:20. Here is an interesting ancient, early Christian quote, about Jesus while He was dead:
I hope at least some of this was helpful! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 26, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9192 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, you really do explain these eternal and difficult concepts well. Thank you for helping me "see" better. Daisie_girl, Jeremy's point about these "things" happening in eternity is extremely important. We cannot understand how Jesus is the eternal Son, nor can we create a "familiar" construct related to our own understanding of time with a "before" and "after", "cause and effect" sequence. God is in eternity; time is a complete subset of eternity, with the past and the present and the future all visible and complete from God's perspective. We're not even capable of understanding the HOW of this fact. Therefore, we have to be content to live with "mystery"--with the parts of reality that are yet unrevealed to us. Sometimes we feel as if we are living with paradox—mutually exclusive facts. And yet, if the Bible says it, we must believe it. We cannot explain away any part of the Bible's revelation by camping on a part that makes more sense to us. We must hold the mysteries of eternity in tension, confident that God would not and cannot lie—and knowing that the day is coming when we will see face to face and know as we are known (1 Cor. 13). The understanding that has helped me (even though I've no idea how this "works") is that God is ONE BEING—and He expresses Himself in three Persons each of whom has a different role. Within this Trinity—this "three in one"—there is order and authority and submission—and all are attributes of God. The headship of the Father over the Son and the Spirit is an attribute of God. The submission of the Son to the Father and of the Spirit to the Son and the Father—that submission is an attribute of God. None of the three has less power or deity or divinity or divine attributes than the others. They are equal in their having all the attributes of God. But they have different roles. And they are not a "family" or an entity like an egg which has three different "substances". Each member of the Trinity is of the same substance. It's not like a family where the husband and wife have the same name but different gene pools, and where the children share genetic stuff from each parent--each of them having different combinations of genes. Rather, God is One—yet there are three Persons. It is a mystery, but understanding that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are eternally God, that Jesus is the "eternally begotten" Son, as Jeremy explained above, is crucial to understanding. Jesus is not more sympathetic to us than is the Father or the Spirit. God—the Trinity—saved us. God—The Trinity—gives us the new birth. The Trinity gives us our work and makes us new. The Trinity gives us our eventual resurrection life in glorified bodies. We cannot separate the Trinity from Itself in any aspect of our salvation and equipping—yet within itself, the Trinity has distinct roles. Amazing. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1565 Registered: 4-2000  |
Well stated, Jeremy and Colleen! Dennis Fischer |
