| Author |
Message |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2000 - 4:58 pm: |     |
Paradox of the Second Comng: THE 'NOW
AND FUTURE' KINGDOM OF HEAVEN
NIV Luke 17:
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees
when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus
replied, "The kingdom of God does not come
with your careful observation,
21 nor will people say, `Here it is,' or `There it
is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
22 Then he said to his disciples, "The time is
coming when you will long to see one of the
days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it.
23 Men will tell you, `There he is!' or `Here he
is!' Do not go running off after them.
24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like
the lightning, which flashes and lights up the
sky from one end to the other.
25 But first he must suffer many things and be
rejected by this generation.
The paradox:
1. The Second Coming has already occurred.
2. The Second Coming has yet to occur. |
Cindy
| | Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2000 - 5:20 pm: | |
Hey Max, :-)) Are we doomed to always live in these ups and downs of our feelings?
Or are you just more stable than me!? :-))
I cry easily, over bad things...and good!! Do you think we'll still cry in heaven?
I would think that the good things (like God's actual PRESENCE!) will still move us to great emotion (and tears?)... but we shouldn't have any more bad things to feel sadness over, should we?
It's hard to comprehend it all...
Have you ever read the book by Ravi Zacharias called "Can Man Live Without God?" I have enjoyed it. I like what he writes about "wonder":
"The older you get, the more it takes to fill your heart with wonder;
and ONLY GOD is big enough to do that..
Not only is He big enough, but in Christian terms He is also near enough....
How do you find that wonder? May I suggest to you, dear friend, that it is not in argument, nor is it in mere dogma. It is not even found in the church. There is a clue to meaning in our experiences--that clue is in relationships.
The center piece of history, says the Bible, is Christ Himself,
and you will find unending wonder in a relationship with Him."
Perhaps this is what heaven is: unending wonder in a relationship with our God!
Grace always,
Cindy |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, November 11, 2000 - 6:07 pm: | |
Hi Cindy,
I refuse to be "the answer man."
^^Are we doomed to always live in these ups
and downs of our feelings?^^ I don't know.
^^ Or are you just more stable than me!?^^ I
don't know. I doubt it.
^^Do you think we'll still cry in heaven?^^ I
refuse to speculate. I certainly do HOPE SO!
NIV Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear
from their eyes. There will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order
of things has passed away."
But this context clearly does not rule out "tears
of joy"!
^^We shouldn't have any more bad things to
feel sadness over, should we?^^ I would hope
that we shouldn't.
Though Scripture continues to be paradoxical
-- example: (1) no lion shall be found there,
and (2) the lion shall lie down with the lamb
there -- we can see that the intent of the writer
is to state that in "bad things" will not happen
there.
Interesting note: Scriputre says there will be a
"new heavens" as well as a "new earth." We
rarely if ever think about that.
EGW says, "Sin shall not arise a second
time." I don't care what she says. Instead I
have learned always to ask, "What does
Scripture REALLY say?" And if Scripture is
silent, I am silent, at least I try to be.
^^I would think that the good things (like God's
actual PRESENCE!) will still move us to great
emotion (and tears?)^^
I don't see in Scripture anything that says
God's actual presence will be greater in the
heaven to come than in the heaven that is
here on earth already. My only criterion: What
does Scripture REALLY say?
Loved your quote from Ravi Zacharias.
And I loved your Cindy quote: ^^Perhaps this is
what heaven is: unending wonder in a
relationship with our God!^^
Max of the Cross |
Valm
| | Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2000 - 3:44 pm: | |
Dear Cindy, Being a melancholic person at sometimes and manic at others, I understand ups and downs. For myself it is my inherited biochemical makeup. And I have faith that what ever form I am in when I get to heaven will be without the biochemical weaknesses I have now. Won't we have a deep appreciation for that?
The downs are down but the ups are marvelous. I have come to cope with this on planet earth by realizing that I have an appreciation for the ups which most people don't have which is its own special blessing.
You sensitivity might be a God given talent. I have found it to be a powerful force in my life. Give thanks for it and enjoy it to its fullest extent!!!!!!!
Max, I marvel at your knowledge of the Bible. Tell me, as a PK how did you learn to read the Bible without the anxiety imposed on you from your Adventist background. I was telling my Aunt I still haven't recovered from toxic faith to really read my Bible. She said that it is because I am still reading it like an Adventist. I would love anyones advice on this matter. Val |
Maryann
| | Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2000 - 5:25 pm: | |
Hi Valerie,
This may draw some disapproval from some, but the way I got past a lot of the indoctrination of SDAism was to listen to good solid tape series'.
I can not recommend Chuck Swindoll to highly! For instance, the Galation series, the Hebrews, the joy chapter-Philippians and so on.
If you want to e-write me you can and I'll give you more ideas:
gogold@quixnet.net
For me, the series' have been so helpful to me at work as I was able to listen for hours every day. I found that good series' from different pastors worked as "Braino Draino";-)) It flushed a bunch of build up;-))
Hope to hear from you.......Maryann |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 1:26 am: | |
Okay, I give. What is a PK? |
Joni
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 3:21 am: | |
Dear Val,
Welcome! Just wanted to add to Maryanne's idea about the tapes. For me it was the "Precept Ministries" (1-800-763-8280/or PreceptMinistries on the net.) Bible studys along with both sets of tapes that come with each study. I had to do it this way because at first there was not a study close by.
Now I enjoy the studies with others and I now attend Church. It took a few years to get SDA out and the Bible in (the true message of the Bible, Jesus Christ crucified for me, plus other glorious truths) I praise God for His love and the relationship that He has taught me to have with Him. May God bless you. He is calling His people to Him.
By the way, what do you do with mommy's and babies? On another thread you said you worked with them, this always sparks my interest as I also worked with them as a homebirth midwife.
Joni |
Jtree
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 4:56 am: | |
PK last I knew meant Promi$e Keeper$. |
Valm
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 7:52 am: | |
Jtree and Denise: Preacher's Kid. Or it least it used to mean that but maybe I am dating myself.
Thanks for the suggestions. I will write them down and look them up.
I am slower than most it took almost 20 years of detox and I started to come out of it after I read Ratzlaff's book The Cultic Doctrine... But I still do have issues.
Joni: I used to be a pediatric nurse practitioner but came very burnt out and went back to doing something I love. I am a visiting nurse for post partum moms and newborns. I do alot of lactation consulting which is my passion. There is no other experience that has taught me how much God loves us as when I nursed my babies who are now 5 and 12. Now I just am so happy to help and share this experience with others. My sister in law had two of hers at home in a tub with a midwife attending; she is much braver than I but what a gift that was for the entire family to have that option. I greatly admire the midwifes in the organization I work with. Very high pt satisfaction and a very low rate of complications!!!
Take care and put me on your prayer list. Val |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 1:21 pm: | |
Hi, Denise,
I know what PK means, since I'm a PK =
preacher's kid too. But I don't know what
LOLOL means. Do you? |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 1:40 pm: | |
LOLOL=laugh out loud out loud......
ROTFL=roll on the floor laughing
gggggggg=giggles
Grrrrrrrr=me mad, you in trouble;-)gggggggg |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 8:47 pm: | |
"'ALL OF GRACE' DOES NOT MEAN
'NOTHING OF MAN', BUT PRECISELY THE
OPPOSITE"
Cindy, here's a quote from a great Reformed
theologian:
"All through the incarnate [God walking on
earth] life and activity of the Lord Jesus we are
shown that 'ALL OF GRACE' does not mean
'NOTHING OF MAN,' but precisely the
opposite: ALL OF GRACE MEANS ALL OF
MAN, for the fullness of grace creatively
includes the fullness and completeness of
our human response in the equation. But this
is not something that can be understood
logically, for logically 'ALL OF GRACE' would
mean 'NOTHING OF MAN,' which may tempt
people to apportion the role of Christ and of
the believer by arguing for 'somoething of
grace' and 'something of man', something
done FOR ME by Christ and something I do
FOR MYSELF! ALL of grace means ALL of
man!"
--Thomas F. Torrance, THE MEDIATION OF
CHRIST (Colorado Springs, CO: Helmers &
Howard, 1992), p. xii.
Emphasis by Dr. Torrance, Professor
Emeritus of Christian Dogmatics, University of
Edinburgh; former Moderator of the General
Assembly of the Church of Scotland; and
winner of the Templeton Prize (an award for
excellence in biblical scholarship).
From the foot of the cross, |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2000 - 8:48 pm: | |
"'ALL OF GRACE' DOES NOT MEAN
'NOTHING OF MAN', BUT PRECISELY THE
OPPOSITE"
Cindy, here's a quote from a great Reformed
theologian:
"All through the incarnate [God walking on
earth] life and activity of the Lord Jesus we are
shown that 'ALL OF GRACE' does not mean
'NOTHING OF MAN,' but precisely the
opposite: ALL OF GRACE MEANS ALL OF
MAN, for the fullness of grace creatively
includes the fullness and completeness of
our human response in the equation. But this
is not something that can be understood
logically, for logically 'ALL OF GRACE' would
mean 'NOTHING OF MAN,' which may tempt
people to apportion the role of Christ and of
the believer by arguing for 'somoething of
grace' and 'something of man', something
done FOR ME by Christ and something I do
FOR MYSELF! ALL of grace means ALL of
man!"
--Thomas F. Torrance, THE MEDIATION OF
CHRIST (Colorado Springs, CO: Helmers &
Howard, 1992), p. xii.
Emphasis by Dr. Torrance, Professor
Emeritus of Christian Dogmatics, University of
Edinburgh; former Moderator of the General
Assembly of the Church of Scotland; and
winner of the Templeton Prize (an award for
excellence in biblical scholarship).
From the foot of the cross, |
Cindy
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2000 - 7:00 am: | |
Dear Valerie, Thank-you for your kind words of Sunday afternoon. I smiled when I read how you described our varying moods, "The downs are down but the ups are marvelous!" :-)) So true for me. I had had a great Saturday and then an awful Sunday!!
In fact, I have thought about it more and I know there are factors of diet, rest and exercise involved in our moods...but I also think there is the matter of spiritual warfare. What do you think?
I feel sometimes that the "Giant of Despair," (like in Pilgrim's Progress), can really get on my back! I know God is stronger, but it still seems the Devil wants to keep me down.
One thing...you had asked a few posts back about the Atonement of Christ, the I love this whole subject (as do we all!) and I had thought it would be good to start a thread devoted solely to the CROSS of CHRIST! Focusing on the Necesssity and Centrality of the Cross...
Well, I started writing a half page and was overwhelmed with feelings of despair and utter "what's-the-use-of-it-all"? So I just erased it all...and the whole day was bad!
And Jesus' Grace has been so much of a comfort and joy to me! I think Satan knows he can get at me with these feelings of worthlessness and fear. I praise God that He is there and will NEVER let me go; that His Grace covers every feeling we may have...
Wow, sounds like I need a shrink, huh? :-)) I have also found the 12-step meetings like AA and Al-anon to be helpful in living "one day at a time" in GOD"S CARE!
Anyway, a great book on the atonement is "The Cross of Christ" by John Stott. So many facets of the Cross's message are brought out...
Grace always,
Cindy |
Valm
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2000 - 1:26 pm: | |
Cindy, Oh yes I do think the moods are due in part to spiritual warfare. But at the same time there is a catch 22 type of a situation or perhaps cirular thinking with believing so. I hope I can articulate this clearly. If my anxiety and depression are a result of my spiritual warfare and I have given them over to Jesus, then why am I still having them? Am I not really giving them over? Are we capable of fully giving them over?If we don't give them fully over does this mean we haven't really accepted God in our lives? Is my melancholy or anxiety a sypmtom that I haven't and hence I am not really saved. It can be a real emotional feeding frenzy and end me right back up try to work my way to God by having "enough" faith. And maybe that is a component in my spiritual warfare itself.
Although it is a contributing factor to my problems at times. I see many other factors too including diet rest exercise as you mentioned. (I am coping with eating disorder issues and addiction to certain foods) Family heritage both genetically and how our family functioned played an enormous role. The effects of living so long under a toxic faith system will always be with us just like the memory and grief of a loved one who has died.
For myself, I try not to brow beat myself when I am down. My moods are not the results of a test of moral fortitude. Instead of spending too much time on the stupidity of how I may have gotten there I try to focus on what I can do for myself to be better.
Despite how I feel today or tomorrow there is the constant in my life that God's grace is sufficient for me!!!!!
I am not the most articulate or knowledgable person on the Bible but isn't there a place where we are told we are strong in our weaknesses? Many of the great artists and musicians throughout history were thought to be depressed, anxious, bipolar etc..... Many of the movers and shakers in our history are suggested to have ADHD.
I encourage you and any one else who is in your situation to rejoice in your ability to feel stronger than others. It is a gift in its own right and you will be amazed at the end of your life when you can meet Jesus and be shown that the unique you that you are has made a difference to so many others.
I would love to read a thread started by you on the Centrality of The Cross. Go for it Girl!!!! There is plenty of use for it all even if the only use is that it is a worshipful experience for you.
I'll be back on Friday. Work days are Weds and Thurs and just nuts around here as I am the Mom and although the rest of them think they are skippers around here, I know when the galley girl gets busy everything falls apart....... |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2000 - 5:50 pm: | |
Dear Cindy,
I found this on the website recommended by
Bill Twisse and thought you might be
interested:
YOUR ëUPSí MAY BE OK, BUT WHAT ABOUT
THOSE ëDOWNSí?
Tips from Dr. Jay E. Adams of the Church of
the Redeemer of the Associate Reformed
Presbyterian Church
^^
WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU BECOME
DEPRESSED
.... what are the conditions for finding the way
out of depression[? L]et me say that there are
three:Ý
1. You must know God personally before you
can expect Him to give you the help that you
need.Ý
2. You must not put the alleviation of
depression first as your goal, but rather the
desire to please God by doing what He says.Ý
3. You must do exactly as He says regardless
of how you feel.Ý
Those are the conditions.
....
"But how does one come to know Him?"Ý
Through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. What I
mean is this: Because we could not free
ourselves from our sins, God in His mercy
provided forgiveness by sending His own Son
to die in the place of guilty sinners, taking the
punishment that they deserved for their sins.
When they come to recognize their perilous
situation before God, and are truly sorry for the
rebellious lives that they have lived and
depend upon Jesus' death on the cross, God
saves (rescues) them from eternal
punishment. God no longer holds them guilty
for their sin and accepts them as friends. He
is not merely their judge from then on, but also
their loving heavenly Father. To those who
come to know Him that way, He makes and
keeps the promises that He has revealed in
the Bible. But they do not pertain to any
others.Ý
....
Although depression is a terribly debilitating
problem that is far too widespread among
Christians as well as among those who do
not know God, it is not so difficult a problem to
solve as at first it might seem to be. What you
need to recognize is that depression comes
as the result of a failure in self-control and
self-discipline. One work of the Holy Spirit of
God is to produce such discipline in those
who, by faithful obedience to His Word, seek
to please God by doing what He says rather
that doing what they feel like doing (cf.
Galatians 5:23). That is at the heart of the
matter.Ý
....
"Yes, that is really how it is -- it just keeps on
getting worse and worse."Ý
Right. So long as you continue to follow your
feelings when they tell you that you "can't" do
what you know that you ought to do, you don't,
and as a consequence, you drop deeper and
deeper into the pit of depression, doing less
and less until at last you are doing nothing but
lying around on the couch, popping
chocolates and watching TV. Am I beginning
to ring any bells?Ý
....
To put it simply, do this:
1. Make a full list of all the things that you know
that you have neglected doing because you
don't feel like doing them.
2. Get to work doing them in order to please
God and the others who are depending upon
you (your spouse, your family, your boss, your
roommate, etc.).
3. Keep at it no matter how you feel, and as
you begin to see the task accomplished, you
will begin to sense a change in feelings. The
tide will have been turned. Homemaker: go
ahead; clean that house, start making those
meals again, get up and see your husband off
to work. Salesman: quit your stalling; get out
that list of prospects, pick up the phone and
begin to make those appointments for an
interview. Then get out on the road and follow
them up till all have been held. Whatever it is
that you ought to do, you know; get to it -- don't
wait until you feel more like it. Don't put it off till
a more convenient time; whatever you can do
right now, do. Don't wait another hour.Ý
Let me sum it up once more in slightly
different words:Ý
1. Confess your sin of failing to assume your
responsibilities along with any other sin that
you may have failed to confess.Ý
2. Begin to do whatever it is that God wants
you to do in order to please Him, regardless of
whether you feel like it or not.Ý
3. Deal biblically with any particular sin that
may have triggered the bad feeling originally
(the feeling may not have originated in sin
however.)
4. Avoid pity parties, blue funks and gripe
groups. Schedule your work, then follow your
schedule not your feelings.Ý
^^
Excerpted from Dr. Jay E. Adams, ìWhat to Do
When You Become Depressedî (pamphlet
Copyright 1975 by Jay F. Adams), Timeless
Texts at 1.800.814.1045, Church of the
Redeemer, Associate Reformed Presbyterian
Church, (864) 486-9154. For more materials
by Dr. Jay E. Adams' From Timeless Texts
1.800.814.1045
PeaceMakers International, Inc.
Security Box 1095
Wheaton, IL 60189
630.668.1205
PeaceMakers.net
To read the full text of Dr. Adams' pamphlet, go
to:
http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/adepressed
.htm
*************************************************
*************************************************
Footnote: FAF is NOT a "gripe group"! And I
don't think Dr. Adams would come anywhere
near characterizing us as such.
Blessings -- and not cursings -- to all!
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2000 - 6:07 pm: | |
Dear Val,
I must apologize to you: I only just now saw
the graf addressed to me by you:
^^ Max, I marvel at your knowledge of the Bible.
Tell me, as a PK how did you learn to read the
Bible without the anxiety imposed on you from
your Adventist background. I was telling my
Aunt I still haven't recovered from toxic faith to
really read my Bible. She said that it is
because I am still reading it like an Adventist. I
would love anyone's advice on this matter. Val
^^
When I was a freshman at one of the most
legalistic SDA academies in the world -- and I
DO mean "world" -- Adelphian Academy in
Holly Michigan (no longer there now), I began
reading Romans on my own.
When I ran across Paul's repeated theme,
"There is none righteous, no not one," I
couldn't figure it out. So I asked the dean of
men (well, boys, actually) -- one of the most
legalistic persons I have ever known. Only I
had no idea then, and so trusted -- or, rather,
mistrusted -- him then.
I can still remember his dour face as he
resonated in sepulchral tones:
"Oh that couldn't mean God's people."
He then went on to expound on how Paul
COULDN'T have been talking about "God's
people" -- including HIMSELF in that category,
though not ME.
I went back to my room and resumed reading
Romans, but never again consulted him in
spiritual matters.
From that day till today I have never ceased
questioning and challenging the Adventists on
the subject of righteousness by faith.
Thanks for triggering that memory,
Max of the Cross
Ps: About "reading the Bible like an Adventist,"
I've written a short story about that, but have
lost it. When I find it I'll post it. |
Valm
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2000 - 9:03 pm: | |
I decide to check the site befor I went down for the night. Thanks for your reply Max and I will look forward to your story on reading the Bible like an Adventist.
I do differ greatly with you on depression. It is not merely a state in which people get into due to lack of self control, ect.... It is very hard for people to understand that many of us have the biological proclivaties (SP?) towards it. Depression, OCD, Anxiety is even being recognized in children to small to have a choice in the matter.
Depression has strong biochemical roots much like diabetes. One would certainly not examine their spiritual life to find the root of it.
I agree that we can do many things for ourselves to help heal. Prayer is a powerful healer. Picking yourself up by your boot straps and getting on with life is imperative.
I believe that embracing who you are in conjunction with those things is important. We each have special gifts to bring to God's community, and I believe that sensitivity and understanding come from people who have walked these roads.
I gotta go. May we all seek God's help in healing and in celebrating who we are. Valerie |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 2:08 am: | |
Thanks, Valerie,
I appreciate your insights, and I don't think
we're as far apart on what clinical depression
is as you might be thinking. |
Cindy
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 6:03 am: | |
Maryann, I loved your term "Braino-Draino"! I"m amazed at how much I've needed the cleansing effect of God's grace these past few years.
Many times when I THINK I've reached a certain level of "perfection!" :-)); I get stuck in some superior mood...often a "spiritual pride" which is really the worst kind!... and then, God uses my circumstances to make me see clearly my need again for HIS GRACE ALONE to cover me!
And also, to cover those who are grating on my nerves! To see them, too, as accepted and perfect in God's eyes. I thank Him for His Spirit who continually stays with me and disciplines me (although I'm often not a willing subject!) And especially, I thank Him for HIS All-Sufficient Perfection that is always undergirding and covering it all, giving me my motivation to continue living IN Grace.
Grace always,
Cindy |
Cindy
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 6:18 am: | |
Max (well!) Hi again! :-))
Interesting quote from Torrance: "All of Grace means all of Man". I am going to have to think of that more today. Would like to read more of his writing on this...
I do think God's grace does bring out the very best of man! JESUS being the Absolutely Perfect Human there could ever be; perfectly related to God in actions, thoughts, even motives! Completely abandoned to His Father...
We are that fullness of true prefect humanity, this "all of man", when we accept this free gift of Jesus' life.
Only this assurance gives us the freedom and liberty to ABANDON OURSELVES to God! In this way, too, "all of Grace" can be "all of Man!" Don't you think this is the response God wants? A total worship and dependence on Him alone...
Grace always,
Cindy |
Cindy
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 6:45 am: | |
P.S. Max... thanks for posting those "tips" on alleviating depression.
I think the idea of getting up and doing those things that one has beeen procrastinating doing is a good idea and helpful in feeling a sense of accomplishment.
And yet! .. there are times when we must be nourished and rest in the peace and care of God...
That article said,
"What you need to recognize is that depression comes as the result of a failure in self-control and self-discipline." I'm not too sure of this always... Sometimes the waves of despair can just come!
He also said, "Confess your sin of failing to assume your responsibilities along with any other sin that you may have failed to confess".
Help! Sometimes I think I've assumed enormous responsibilities! I am worn out! I'm afraid this advice could be more depressing to some who are attempting to live responsibly....
Anyway, I have seen that trusting in God's care and "attitude of gratitude" are so important! Trying to focus on OTHER people and help them is so healing to our OWN spirits. I think this is what that article was saying, also...
And, always, especially... realizing the Sovereignity of God being in control! I have good friends in their mid-seventies who have gone through some unbelievably hard times, who constantly remind me of GOD"S sovereignity in my life. It is always encouraging...
Grace always,
Cindy |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 8:54 am: | |
Hi, Cindy,
Yes, I agree with your analysis of Dr. Adams'
depression pamphlet. Depression isn't
something a person can "snap out of" or pull
one's self up by one's boot straps.
There are actual biochemical imbalances in
the brain that can be helped with prescribed
anti-depressants. And a combination of
medication and professional "talk therapy"
has been shown to be the most effective way
for the illness to be treated.
Dr. Adams -- a Ph.D theologian and not an
M.D. physician -- may not have been
sufficiently aware of that. I posted it because
he looks at depression from the standpoint of
Scripture. One can take that part as good and
leave the other part alone.
But I still should have been more selective in
my excerpting.
Mea culpa, |
Valm
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 7:31 am: | |
Hi all, Took a minute to check the site as I had to check the CDC site about my son. He had the chicken pox vaccine and has what I suspected to be a mild case of cpox which was confirmed in my reading. I guess I will be staying home today unless I can find a sitter.
Anyhow, enjoyed the conversation and will get more actively involved in a day or two. I pray for you all during the day and ask the same from you.
One quick question, I tend to get off track from the main theme of the thread but want to converse more about depression ect as it seems to be something so common in our society which needs spiritual support as well as common to people undergoing the dramatic change of coming out of toxic faith. Should a new thread be started? Val |
Max
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 10:48 am: | |
Yes, Val. You start it. She who starts it gets to
define it. |
|
