Former Adventist Fellowship Forum: Sabbath worries

Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 2:43 pm:

Carol, I am more and more convinced that truly the only thing we can do for unbelievers is to pray for them. Of course, we need to speak when we're given the opportunity, and the Holy Spirit is faithful to provide us with the words and inisghts we at at any given time.

Prayer is the one great calling of a Christ-follower--that is, besides staying intimate with Jesus and responsive to him! He takes care of everything else in our lives; he even brings us the work he wants us to do!

Colleen

Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 3:26 pm:

Greetings,

I do not post often in this forum but do read as much as possible when I log on.

I remember hearing Cantrights name from my college days but had never read his books. I found a web site which has some of his books etc. and downloaded them. I'm currently reading them. One is titled, "EGW - Her Claims Refuted", another "D.M. Canright - Not a Lost Man" and a third titled "Lord's Day..." I'm not sure of the correct title and I'm writing this from my class room. The first one I'm about 2/3 of the way finished and it is very thought provoking.

Please keep me in your prayers as I read and study and prayfully examine God's Word. Also please keep the SDA church I attend in your prayers. It has some wonderfull, caring, deeply spiritual and commited Christians as members. Many members are members of the church (local church) but not members of the denomination. Many are far outside the traditional SDA "boundaries" and my prayer is that God will continue to guide and direct our path. He has promised to guide us "into all truth" and I claim that promise.

I want to thank Colleen and Richard for giving me the books they did when I visited the Friday night fellowship they host. I've been blessed.

In Christ,

Richard

Freeatlast (Freeatlast)

Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 3:52 pm:

Richard, I studied feverishly for nearly a year before I came across Canright's book. It put the final nail in the coffin for me. Being a 3rd-generation SDA, heir of a rich family tradition (parents, relatives all in SDA health or educational industry), born in an "Adventist ghetto" (Takoma Park, Berrien Springs, Loma Linda, etc.). Obviously the lightning that hit my conscience with regard to SDA hit very close to home! I love all of my SDA family and friends deeply and I pray for them constantly.

It has been difficult, but I followed my conscience and what I felt that God was showing me and He was faithful to His promise. Trust Him, fully in Him, and ONLY in Him and in His word! Allow the Holy Spirit to teach you in your heart and be willing to be led, even into difficult places. A sincere, seeking journey with the Holy Spirit has turned out to be the most rewarding experience of my life. After nearly 3 years of turmoil, He delivered truth and peace to me in Jesus' name. I wish you blessings and the Holy Spirit's counsel in your study.

Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 6:30 pm:

I totally agree that the sda focus is to get people top become sda who are already in a Christian community. Thisis the exact same thing I hear from the jw´s. I am frequently told by the jw´s that they will not go into a church because going into the church of a false religion is akin to a dog going back to lick its vomit. A very dear person to me who is jw keeps wanting me to go with her to her kingdom hall. I finilly told her I´d make her a deal. Thje deal is that I´ll go with her if she´ll go with me. Of course, that will never happen so I have my out. But, it is so similiar to thesda. I personally know sda´s who will not even consider purchasing any Christian reading material from the local Christian bookstore. They will only purchase from the abc. I am told that thisis because they will not purchase Christian anything from non-Sabbathkeepers. Like, they are totally wrong so how could they ever learn any truth from them. To me the doctrines may be totally different between the sda and the jw but the mind set is exactially the same. The jw, too try to get their converts from the ranks of other Christian communities. I say, ¨Be ever vigelent!

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 3:54 pm:

Freeatlast, thanks very much for your encouragement and the shareing of your experience. I am forunate to attend a church where so many members are not members of the denomination. This reduces the "stigma" associated with some of the questions and directions my study is taking me. My family knows that the church I attend is not "traditional" but they do not yet know the depth of my study or where God is leading me.

I'm sure that God will open the doors that need opening and close the doors that should be closed. Over the last few years God has opened many doors for fellowship and ministry with other NONSDA fellowships which have enriched my walk with the Lord GREATLY. It has and is an awesome journey I am on, scary yet I feel so blessed! !

I wonder if I might communicate with you privately via Email sometime. My emal address is rtruittca@earthlink.net.

In fact i wish it was possible for me to communicate with many I see here. Do we have any type of directory of Email addresses. I'm not sure what the protocol is for that.

I'll write more later. I'm going to church tonight were we will be studing "the gifts of the Spirit".

May God's blessing be with all who enter this forum.

Richard

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 5:25 pm:

You can always email formeradventist@aol.com and ask us to send someone your email. You can post your address on the forum, but we discourage that because sometimes you end up gettingunwanted correspondence with people you don't know!

Richard, what is the status of your daughter?

With prayers for you,

Colleen

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 5:34 pm:

Richard, Many of us have given out our email addresses in the forum but for those who haven't done this and you wanted to get in touch with them, I don't know but you could probably have Colleen send an email to the effect that you wanted correspondence, that way it wouldn't be a violation of trust. I believe that all of us had to give our address when we registered, so, you may want to either send an email to formeradventist or ask her what she thinks here in a post, I am sure she will let you know the protocol on that. I don't mind anyone knowing my address since I now have MSN that filters my mail when I find myself corresponding with undesirables that get out of hand, so, my address is JaniceLumpkin@msn.com and I welcome any comments and/or suggestions for my new website at www.theLumpkinhome.com.

I planned to go to Gulf Shores for the weekend and go out in our boat there but the weather is bad everywhere, guess I really don't have a lot of money to spend anyway, so, guess it will wait for later.

Janice

Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 5:36 pm:

Richard, Many of us have given out our email addresses in the forum but for those who haven't done this and you wanted to get in touch with them, I don't know but you could probably have Colleen send an email to the effect that you wanted correspondence, that way it wouldn't be a violation of trust. I believe that all of us had to give our address when we registered, so, you may want to either send an email to formeradventist or ask her what she thinks here in a post, I am sure she will let you know the protocol on that. I don't mind anyone knowing my address since I now have MSN that filters my mail when I find myself corresponding with undesirables that get out of hand, so, my address is JaniceLumpkin@msn.com and I welcome any comments and/or suggestions for my new website at www.theLumpkinhome.com as well, I want to edit it with pictures and maybe some testimonials too, but mainly it is a site that is devoted primarily to spreading the gospel of grace.

We had planned to go to Gulf Shores for the weekend and go out in our boat there, but the weather is bad everywhere, guess I really don't have a lot of money to spend anyway, so, guess it will wait for later.

Janice

Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 7:23 pm:

My teacher taught from Genesis this morning and while reading in that book about creation, I came to a verse that I know I have read many times over but God just kind of let it jump out at me for some reason, and I thought I would post about it tonight.

Several years ago, while arguing with my sister over the Sabbath issue, she told me that Saturday was the true Sabbath and about how it was given to us as a seal (this is not the seal for Jesus' bride) and no arguments would sway her to set foot in my church while she visited down here since we weren't observers of Sabbath, we were shunned and thought of as taking the mark of the beast and damning ourselves to hell (I will insert this thought here while I am at it, why would I fear hell if I am going to be anniliated anyway?), but I was always polite enough to go with her to Sabbath School and worship service, if you want to call it that, anyway, she told me that the SDAs had a true prophetess that revealed this truth to them through her writings and it was truth that the week of creation was a literal SEVEN day week because in each day of creation the verse ended with "and the evening and the morning were the 1,2,3, etc. day" and that was why they started Sabbath on Friday night at sunset, and it was over at sunset Saturday night. I was fighting a NO WIN situation and let it drop for a little while only to get bombarded with pages and pages of mail from her "elaborating" on the Sabbath which naturally got me on the defense as I determined to do my Christian duty and DEFEND the faith.

Well, after over 500 pages of handwritten "proof texts" from both parties, once again I left it alone. She returned my last letter to me, supposedly unread, but I saw where she had steamed it open, and later when I told her that I knew she had read it, she confessed that I had grieved her soul when she read the part that said that she and Ron were sinning and committing adultery since they both had been divorced. She didn't like it when I quoted the scriptures that said that if you lived by the law that you were indebted to keep the entire law and if you sinned in one law, you had sinned in ALL of the law. Go figure, huh? Well, I know that it may sound harsh when I told her that she was an adulteress, but I said it to prove my point, it was condemnation or judgment on my part, I was trying to get her to see how it looked to others when she condemned them for worshiping on the wrong day of the week (that is insignificant, by the way) but didn't want to see where she was actually breaking another one of the big "10" that she was always making such a to-do about. Why is it that the SDAs want to condemn all of the Christians to hell who worship on Sunday and therefore are breaking Sabbath, which they say is the 4th commandment, but get to pick and choose which other of the "10" they can keep and which to ignore?

So much informative study has been done by numerous Bible scholars to define exactly what the Bible is in reference to when it uses the terms: laws, covenants, and commandments ands the truth is that when the stones were carved by the finger of God and when all of the covenants, laws, and commandments were pinned, they were written with no separation in words, no punctuations marks, and no vowels, so, just where does everyone conclude that they're actually "10" commandments in the first place while concluding that the rest of the writings of Moses, the five books of the LAW, are the only ones abolished while the big "10" were kept in affect?

My sister didn't talk to me for over six months, but during a visit for the holidays, wept while on her knees at my feet and said that she was sorry and we let it go at that and resorted to "small talk" about the weather, politics, etc. I decided to get on with my life and let God handle it, but after that incident and years of resistance, my mother also converted to SDA and later moved to Tennessee where she presently attends the SDA church over in Boone, North Carolina with my sister and her SDA family. It was during that time that I started e-mailing to mother on a daily basis and decided to send her a post card e-mail from the SDA web site but couldn't remember the URL, so I did a search on SDAs and found numerous listings, and that was when I found some pretty intriguing stuff similar to the FAF and decided to write and tell my mom about what I had found and suggested that she visit some of the sites. As usual, my mother always threw the ball to my sister, who had years of SDA teaching under her belt, when I asked her questions concerning her denominational beliefs such as soul sleep, eternal hell, etc. and then all of the old arguments were rekindled and then my sister got ugly with it all and even WARNED me of what had happened to the children who had mocked Daniel and suggested that IF I didn't stop sending such propaganda from "disgruntled x-SDAs" that I might suffer the safe fate as those children who were mauled by a bear. OOOOOhhhh, like I am so scared!!!! (There is a BIG difference between making fun of someone and testing one's spirit to see if it is harmony with the gospel, as God's word commands us to do.)

Back to what I found today while reading in Genesis. I wanted to mention that the Bible states "in the beginning there was 'light'" but did you notice that the sun, moon, and stars weren't created until the third day? My question to any SDA then would logically be "how can it be a literal day that began at sunset and ended at sunrise, if the sun, moon, and stars did not come into existance until the third day?"

I also thought that it was interesting that after the Sabbath was mentioned in Genesis 2:2,3, verse 4 states: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens... So, I guess my mind got to wondering over the word "generations" and guess that maybe I placed more emphasis on it than maybe I should have because now that I have studied the word, it merely means "an historical account" and isn't really in reference to a time frame in this incidence like it is when speaking of family lineage, but it was food for thought in light of the fact that the constellations weren't created until the middle of the creation "week?" and I am wondering what the rest of you might think of my findings.

We had another wonderful service tonight and the sermon was all about Christian fellowship and the UNITY of the church, with the scripture taken from I Corinthians 11:17-34. They were Christians, but Paul had heard about their divisions and heresies that had come into the fellowship and wrote to reprimand them for allowing this to happen within the church. He went on to say that this was the reason that they were sick and weak and some had even died prematurely because they were not holding the Lord's Supper in reverance. The people were having fellowship dinners but weren't really sharing in food, drink, or fellowship, so, Paul reminded them that they needed to examine themselves before God took over in the examination and judgment.

Well, I didn't mean to retell the entire sermon, but the bottom line is that Paul taught unity and constantly wrote about being of the same mind and thinking the same thing, so, that is why my heart aches when I relate to all of you concerning my family and the broken fellowship, and I share in your pain as well when you share your stories that are all too familiar to each one of us here in the forum. I am just thankful that the veil was lifted, and you were able to see the truth and came out from among them into the glorious light that has been since the beginning before the sun, moon, and the stars of creation. Amen, God bless, and good night to you all till we meet here again or in glory which is far better as Paul said.

Janice

Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 10:45 pm:

Janice, your sister's argument about creation week giving the time frame for Sabbath observance (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) may be one some Adventist pastors use, but it's not the typical, true SDA reason.

The sundown to sundown comand originated in Leviticus 23:32 where it says, "From evening until evening you shall keep your Sabbaths." Although this command was given originally for the Day of Atonement, the typical Jewish understanding was that it applied to all Sabbath celebrations.

Fast forward to James and Ellen White and Joseph Bates, who taught them about the Sabbath. Originally they did not keep the day from sundown to sundown. They began it (if memory serves me!) at 6:00 p.m. on Friday and ended at 6:00 p.m. on Saturday. This method seemed to work for all time frames and latitudes. They revised it later to go from sundown to sundown.

Adventists typically find many creative ways to interpret scriptures to support weak doctrinal positions. Since Ellen's pronouncements often had little to do with scripture, her successors have often felt it necessary to find scriptural bolstering for many traditional SDA beliefs.

I am so thankful for Jesus, our true Sabbath rest. BTW, if you haven't seen Dale Ratzlaff's new book, Sabbath in Christ, (a revised and redesigned verson of the old Sabbath in Crisis) you should. He has added some chapters and some details, and it is even better than the first book. It is also good for the Christian community at large. It's a careful and analytical discussion of the covenants, Jesus as Sabbath rest, living in the Spirit, and more.

Colleen

Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 9:00 am:

Colleen, Thanks for the information. Many books have been written to respond to the SDAs teachings on the Sabbath and much historical research has gone into those books as well, but the SDAs are like all the other cults in this one thing: they teach that unless it is a writing from one of their own people, it is uninspired and basically a LIE from the devil. My sister even told me once that IF you really wanted to get rid of a Jehovah's Witness that all you had to do was make a deal with them to read their books if they would read yours because they won't read anything except JW literature, so, seeing as how the SDAs won't read any other denomination's literature either, what she said really didn't make a lot of sense, at least it didn't to me.

I guess both groups can recognize and relate to one another those similar character traits found in the various cults, right? The bottom line is that in their frame of mind, they are RIGHT and everyone else in the world is WRONG, and don't even try to show them any different because they are not going to listen to you anyway! So,I tend to spend a lot of my time wondering why some of us get the gospel message and some of us don't.

I have read a lot of the personal testimonies at this web site but still wonder why some of you got out but are still having to deal with family members that refuse to listen to you when it is so obvious that the clock is ticking closer and closer to midnight when it will be too late for the harvest.

Of course, there is a lot in this life that I don't understand besides religion such as why do some get addicted to smoking, some to drinking, others live to eat but can't seem to get fat enough while the others go to the opposite extreme by becoming anorexic or bulomic, and probably the sickest of all are the sex offenders of varing degrees.

The bottom line is that all of these things are sins of the flesh that some people just can't seem to control and is the direct result of a poor or non-existant education of God and his word. Those of us who read God's word though are told that it will only get worse as history spirals on its downhill spin to eternity and the devil is going to take as many as he can to hell with him, so, we have to continue speaking out when and where we can and count it all joy when we face opposition while working for the Lord.

It will be worth it all in the end.

We must not give up and we can't afford to give in, our friends and loved ones souls are at stack.

Janice

Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 2:12 pm:

I have been told by several sda's recently that with so many Sunday churches now having a worship service on Saturday that this proves the Sabbath-keeping churches are right because this shows that satan is infilterating the Sunday churches to have a Saturday worship service so it will APPEAR to the Sunday keepers that they are observing the Sabbath commandment but really they are not and they are being decived by the evil one. I know the above sentence sounds jibberish but that is how this topic of so many other churches now having a Saturday service is presented to be by different sda people that I know. In other words, as I interpert it, one is a real Sabnbath keeper if he knows he is a Sabbath keeper and attends a church that claims to be a Sabbath keeping church. But, just attending a worship service on Saturday does not make one a Sabbath keeper so to attend a non-Sabbath keeping church on Saturday is just as wrong as attending a non-Sabbath keeping church on Sunday. But, people can read for themselves that the seventh day is to be kept holy so satan is deciveing them into thinking if they go to church on Saturday then they are being "real sabbath keepers" which any good sda knows they are not. This has come about because several churches in my area now have a Saturday afternoon worship service. It is causing great di several sda's in this area are now attending the local sda church in the morning and then one of these other churches on Saturday afternoon. Some of the sda's don't approve of their sda commrads attending another church, even if the other church meets on Saturdays. It's all very convoluted.

Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 10:25 pm:

You're right; but that really is the way most Adventists feel!

Colleen

Steve (Steve)

Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 10:12 pm:

You're right, Susan_2,

I had told my wife that I would still attend Sabbath school and church with her and the kids. I wanted to attend the church of my choice on Sunday.

It was attending the church of my choice, particularly on Sunday, that caused a horrible rift between us. She truly believes that I have the mark of the beast.

I used to think that it was just the "Sunday" thing. However, she's specifically stated, as I've been getting most of my belongings out of our storage, that I could leave all the EGW books, as I won't have any use for them.

It's not just Sabbath vs. Sunday. Attending with them every Sabbath wasn't enough. It really boils down to accepting EGW as the prophet of the end-times.

Even SDAs that seem to have an open mind are really very close minded. I've spoken to two who have spent considerable time visiting other churches. One of them, a fairly well-known author in the La Sierra area, has specifically stated that he visited those churches to worship with, AND LEARN FROM other Christian churches, so he could BRING BACK new ideas to the SDA church.

Go figure.

Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 11:27 am:

Yep, Steve, I've heard that from people at Loma Linda! It's always about a "program"; what can they do to increase involvement and attendance?

Heres the secret they can't seem to access: it's not about a program. It's about the presence of the Holy Spirit--and that you can't control or impose!

Colleen

Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

Colleen, and some others on this forum, Do you all live in the Chino Hills area? I will be coming down to Chino Hills several times per month starting next week and Colleen, I would like to come visit at the church you attend. I think you have my snail mail address so please send the directions to the church, the phone number and the times of the services. Be sure to include the service that you and Richard attend.

Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 1:39 pm:

Susan 2, Colleen etc, if there is a group get together of those in this discussion I'd love to meet with "you-all".

I live about 40 miles from the church Colleen attends.

Richard

PS: Chino Hills is about 10-15 miles from where I live with my daughter and wife in Claremont and teach in Pomona. Only two weeks to go before vacation.

Steve (Steve)

Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 9:47 pm:

I won't speak for others on a public forum. However, I live in the Riverside area, which is a short drive from the Chino Hills area.

I get up to the church in Redlands each Friday for the FAF Bible study (one of the most incredible study groups I've ever had the privilege of meeting with.)

Redlands can be 45 or more minutes away in commute traffic, or just 30 minutes coming home late at night.

Hope to see some of you there sometime.

Steve

Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 10:05 pm:

Steve, I know I'm keeping this discussion off topic but I wanted to ask a question. I was at the Friday evening meeting only once and wonder if you were there when I was. I don't remember a Steve that night.

If you were there I was the "bearded Santa Claus" looking guy.

I live just across the border in LA county.

Richard

Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 11:32 pm:

Susan, I'd love to meet you! We'd also love to have you visit our Friday Bible study if you can come. Please email me again with your snail mail; I know I have it stored somewhere in my email archive, but I think it would be easier if you sent it again!

BTW, the church address is on the church website which is linked to this site. But I'll email you directions, Susan. Oh, you don't have email any more, do you? I'll look for your address and send the info. I might not get to it until the weekend or the first of next week, though. I've still got close to 60 essays to grade, and final grades are due next Tuesday. I feel overwhelmed, but the end is in sight!

Summer is almost here; I can almost taste it!

Colleen

Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 2:44 pm:

I would love to come to the Friday evening study. I will be in yourarea from Friday, the 13th to Sunday, the 15th. Then I most likely will be down there twice per month for a yet undertermined amount of months into the future. In Chino Hills is a large grouphome called Boys Replubic. I will be at the grouphome. It iswonderful as they have accomadations (apartments) for family members who come to visit their boys so I won´t even have to pay for a motel. Just put the name and the address of youre church on this website, right under this post, and the church phone number and the times of the services and I´ll find it. Are you acquainted with Boys Republic? I have heard it has an excellant program for wayword youth. Have any of you ever heard of an actor named Steve McQueen? He was a teenager at Boys Replubic for several years. He now does fundraising for the facility as well as being a major contributer himself. I have heard that he was headed down the path of a criminal and had it not been for the intervention and values given him at BR he believes he´d now be in prison. What a testemony.