| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 1:41 pm: |     |
I agree, Melissa. If we are truly following Christ and living for Him, committed to living lives worthy of the gospel, as Paul said, then the focus of our belief really can't be end-time events. It must be Jesus.
I really had no contact with anyone from Dallas Theological Seminary before coming to Trinity, but I had heard the negative whispers about its being "fundamentalist" and rigid. I was cautious about "buying" Gary Inrig's teaching at first for that very reason. To my surprise, however, the Bible has become a living, deep, exciting book. Both Gary and his wife Elizabeth are amazing Bible teachers. They are deep, questioning, incisive, and they respect the word of God. Through their teaching I have learned inductive Bible study, and the power and consistency of the word continues to amaze me.
Dispensational or not, DTS does produce some remarkable Bible scholars. I just don't think one's view of dispensationalism is what defines us as "acceptable" Christians or not.
Jesus is everything!
Colleen |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 285
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 6:13 am: | |
Colleen, I have absolutely no problem in attending a church where most people, including the pastor believe in the Pretrib rapture. What has been problematic is when this view is in the forefront and constantly being promoted. Iíve seen skits, Iíve seen dramas, Iíve seen movies, Iíve seen video presentations and heard innumerable sermons. In those cases, itís as though their eschatology has become the tail wagging the dog. It reminds me of where Adventists raise the Sabbath to their primary focus. Iím not about to shift to another church where eschatology, rather than Jesus, is the focus.
Donít get me wrong. There are other great churches out there, but theyíre just harder to find. Before I moved, Iíd located two excellent churchesóone of which was a Calvary Chapel. In my current location, the Calvary Chapel is far from where I live.
Itís interesting that some of us find new churches almost immediately. Others may be too burned out to even attend church for awhile. And then there are those like me who try various churches before one becomes home. For me, I believe the viewing of many different congregations has been extremely valuable in my walk out of Adventism. Iíve come to appreciate all different types of services and gain a blessing from new things that Iím learning. Since I have friends in various parachurch ministries, itís not as if I no longer have a Christian friendship base. Thank the Lord that he set up a foundation of friends from various denominations that have been with me as Iíve journeyed out. Jesus is so awesome (to quote Diana) as he anticipates our needs and provides for us in advance.
Thanks, Colleen, for asking about my husband and the Cantata. His comment was ìIt was kinda long.î Later I overheard him on the phone talking with his SDA pastor who had obviously asked if heíd gone. He responded to him, ìYes, but I liked ours better.î Now, he does happen to have a very evangelical SDA pastor who Iím sure preached a great Resurrection Day sermon, even if it was on the wrong day. Who knows? Spiritual warfare continues (and actually is increasing) over spiritual issues, which suggests to me that the Holy Spirit is not leaving him comfortable with his status quo even though he absolutely refuses to discuss any spiritual topics.
Praise GodÖ
|
Skip
Registered user
Username: Skip
Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 10:31 am: | |
Dear Dennis J. Fischer:
Thanks for your info on Ms. McDonnald and how the Repture made its way to Dallas Texas in 1830. That's the same thing that Pastor Arnold Murry teaches on his telecast in the early AM. My problem with "The Rapture" is the idea that they give that cars will have no drivers, and airplanes that had "Christian pilots" will then have no pilots. According to the bible NO CAR and NO AIRPLANE will have anybody driving them because human flesh will have been burnt off by the brightness of His coming as Peter has so well said. Everything is going to be burnt up with an awful noise when He comes.
That's also the best way to expose the fake second coming if that's indeed what the Sixth Trump is going to be. If you can pinch yourself and make it hurt, then Jesus hasn't come yet and you're still in your old body. But if you can feel no pain, then the second coming has taken place and it's all over. But that's all like counting how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.
What I wonder about is what's going to stand in place of what we once believed would be the "last actions" on earth before Jesus comes again? Will there be a law that demands that people bow down and worship the image to the Beast that has been set up in Europe, or will something else happen?
Skip |
Skip
Registered user
Username: Skip
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:22 am: | |
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:07 am: ÝÝ
Jeremy:
According to that one page you posted on they say:
"when one closely examines MacDonald's vision, it becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulational one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist. John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine, which teaches a two-staged eventófirst, Christ coming for His Church and second, seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, it is difficult to see any linkage."
As they've just said: "Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist."
SO, show me in the bible where and when these Christians are going to be taken away before Jesus comes back? According to our bibles every eye will see Jesus at His second coming, and he's gong to cut short the time of trouble for the elect's sake, meaning that "the elect" will be right here in the trouble that will be going on all along.
But my point is that Jesus isn't going to "come twice to three times" at the end, but only ONE TIME! But instead when He does come, everything will be burned up then at His Second Coming that will be "Public" according to the bible, unlike "Left Behind" has wrongfully taught so many people. "The Rapture" people say that His coming will be "secret" and that's when He will snatch up his people leaving airplanes and cars to crash, while nobody will see HIm when He comes! Clarly the word of God says that "every eye shall see Him." That His coming will be like the lightening that shines from the east to the west. In other words, everybody alive and dead will see His ONE TIME coming! It isn't going to happen twice the way LEFT BEHIND tries to tell the world.
However, rather than taking the saved OUT OF THE WORLD before the end time events happen, Jesus says he will "shorten" the final events for "the elects sake." So that means that "the elect" will be right here IN the trouble that will be going on rather than "raptured out" as the NOVEL "Left Behind" has told 60 million readers. We now have all of christiandom believing in a novel rather than the clear word of God what will happen at the end times. And that's what has amazed me about this "novel" that pretends to be good scripture. It's anything but.
Skip |
Skip
Registered user
Username: Skip
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 2:03 pm: | |
Melissa:
Sorry I wasn't trying to disreguard your post. "The Rapture" has now come to mean a lot of different things to different people, and some see it as the end of the world and the Second Coming of Christ. BUT, they say that Christ will come and take away the christians, and then come back again 7 years later! A two phased "Second Coming" that paul and Peter never taught in the bible. Yet, here we have a "novel" that has sold 60 million copies that does teach this! So what we've got is most of the Christians in America believing a lie. Jesus said that He would cut short the time of trouble for the "elect's sake" because they'd be here right in the middle of the same suffering that the rest of the world was going to be going through.
Now, since Jesus says that His coming will light up the sky, that it will be like the lighting that can be seen from the east to the west, then we are to expect a "PUBLIC" second coming aren't we?
How then can the Novel "LEFT BEHIND" come along then and pretend that the Second Coming will be "secret" and that "some" of the christians will be taken at the first part of the second coming, while others won't go until 7 years later? Once you read what the bible says about the second coming, and then see what the novel LEFT BEHIND says, you can see that there are two different things being taught there. So why does satan want to mislead so many Christians about the end times?
Skip |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:59 pm: | |
PraiseGod, I understand about some not finding a church quickly. We actually had a home church for two years before finding our church--which, ironically, is almost on our doorstep--about 3 miles down the hill from us. We passed it every day!
God's timing is perfect...even for your husband!
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 353
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 8:25 pm: | |
Skip,
Thank you for your remarks. While I do not believe that rapture theology is biblical, many or most of my church friends sincerely believe this--including our pastoral staff. These people are God's children with no doubt in my mind. Presently, I don't see how their eschatological views, although seriously flawed, are harmful to them in any spiritual sense. Thankfully, eschatological views are not doctrines in our church (Evangelical Free Church of America: www.efca.org).
However, my "secret rapture" friends may get into difficulty when the endtime scenario doesn't pan out like they expected. By not being rescued from oppression and hardship, they may conclude that their eternity will be spent in the wrong place. This would be somewhat of a repeat of the Millerite "Great Disappointment." To their credit, many of my church friends agree that they may be wrong and that all of us may be wrong about many endtime scenario details.
Indeed, we err when we get overly dogmatic about the endtime sequence of events. With the exception of the Bible teaching only one simultaneous rapture of the saints, I am content to let God handle my future. Having anchored my life in Jesus, I have nothing to fear. He will always be with me--even to the very end of earth's history. Praise God!
Secure in His hand,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 831
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:02 am: | |
According to Revelation 19, the second coming of Jesus will be on a white horse, followed by his armies. According to verse 19:15, his word will ìsmite the nationsî. One angel invites the birds to come feast upon the flesh of kings, etc (vs 17-18). In verse 19, it says the kings are preparing to war against Jesus and his army. In 19:20, the beast and false prophet are captured and thrown into the lake of fire. In verse 21 it finally says the rest were killed with the sword of Jesus mouth. No mention or indication in Revelation of all people being burned up by Jesus presence.
I believe it is SDA escatology that says people are all consumed ìby the brightness of Jesus comingî, but that doesnít gel with Revelation which says the people will not only see him, but prepare for a war with him. Only after the beast is thrown into the lake of fire will the rest be killed by the sword of Jesus mouth (which we typically understand as his word). I believe the verse referenced for the "brightness consuming all" teaching is from 2 Thess 2:8. Hereís what that verse says from the literal Bible translation:
--------------
And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.
--------------
The context is speaking of ìthe lawless oneî. It does not say all people will be burned up by his brightness, but ìby the spirit of His mouthî the lawless One will be ìconsumedî and ìbrought to noughtî by the brightness of his presence. That passage has to fit into the Revelation account, and to say it is saying all people will be burned up by his brightness seems an addition not explicitly or implicity in the text. (I looked it up in 9 translations.) It only mentions the lawless one being affected by his presence. In Revelation, it would seem to be saying the people of earth will be gathering to fight Jesus and his armies (and I might mention "some" think that because 1 Thess says we will "ever be with the Lord" that WE are part of those armies who come to earth with Jesus having met with him in the clouds and having been changed...see next paragraph) and not killed until after the beast and false prophet are taken.
As for the people of God, we are told we will meet Jesus in the air. 1Th 4:17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
But thatís not the end of what scripture says about ìusî. 1 Corinth 15:51-52 says: ìBehold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.î
So, to gel with 1 Thess 4, there will be a trumpet, the dead Christians will come with Jesus, their bodies being raised incorruptible, to meet those remaining alive, we will meet in the clouds and we will be changed. Is this all happening at the same time of Rev 19:14-21??
All of that is to show why I donít think the Bible supports the idea of everyone being burned up the moment he shows up on the sceneÖGiven the 1 Thessalonians text, I think it is quite Biblical to believe that the Christians who are meeting the Lord in the air will leave unmanned cars, while the non-Christians are still in their cars, planes etc. Since God is everywhere, I supposed we could have our meeting in the air at the same time the war is raging on earth, but it does not seem unBiblical to me to think those things happen at different times.
Itís hard to know what is figurative and what is literal, but if 2 Thess 2:8 is to be used in context, itís specifically talking about what happens to the lawless one. The rest of the issues have been highly debated by many people throughout the years, and I'm not taking it on here. But it does always stick in my throat a little bit to say that thinking these things don't all happen at the same instant is "unbiblical".
Not looking for an argument, but the all at once scenario seems as presumptive as assuming one thing happens, then the other. As always, I could be wrong here. |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 320
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:07 am: | |
Here's a good one:
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rapture.htm |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 506
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:01 am: | |
I would also like to know what we all are doing in the air, if we aren't going to heaven? Are we just going to go up into the air for a minute and then come back down to earth with Jesus?
I would like an explanation of this from those who believe in only one event.
I'm not totally certain what I believe about it all yet. 
Jeremy |
|
