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Jlondon81
Registered user
Username: Jlondon81
Post Number: 6
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 3:51 pm: |     |
It's interesting to me to hear other talk about the Pentecostal church, because I myself was raised under their teaching. Even though I've frequented this forum as a "never-was-an-SDA", I was Pentecostal, bred out of the Assemblies of God church, but more so on the Trinity Broadcasting Network.
My father was very much into the ministries of well known Word-Faith teachers like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Jerry Savelle, etc. (The Word-Faith movement is considered an off-shoot of Pentecostalism, but having been in it myself, I can tell you they're directly related.) Naturally, I was into that too. I can remember one night I went to a church service with my father and the speaker after the service asked if I ever "received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues." I said no, and a 7 year old boy prayed over me. I had the "slain in the Spirit" experience. I remember laying on the floor in front of the front pews and the pastor's wife looking over me, said a bunch of nonsense and suddenly I started "speaking in tongues."
Knowing what I know now about the gifts of the spirit, speaking in tongues and the Pentecostal church, I honestly cannot explain to this day what happened that night, but I remember it well. There was a lot I had to unlearn from their teaching when I finally understood grace (which came from a study of SDA doctrine). I went from Pentecostal to almost SDA to realizing I was a child of God the whole time and realizing what that meant. Pentecostals do not share the same doctrinal stances as SDA, but the bondage is there just the same. Too many Christians trapped in bondage do not understand that the whole time, they are called a child of God. Their church, denomination, whatever, has denied them this and told them its not true. When the realization comes however, freedom is discovered and life can truly begin. |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 118
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 5:31 pm: | |
I'm finding that they are all different. The problems I found were the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues being for EVERY believer. I don't believe that. Maybe just maybe every believer could have that gift but I know for sure that every believer doesn't and that doesn't mean they aren't believers.
The next thing was the teaching that one can lose one's salvation by his deeds. I think you are saved or you are not and God knew which you were before you did. (period)
The church didn't have anything separate for the children and that bothered me. I even volunteered to teach a Sunday School but it didn't seem to be important to them so much.
The main problem I had and the reason I left was that there was too much "seeking the Spirit" and not enough Word. I was in a place that I needed some preaching and I wasn't learning a lot.
The pastor's wife made a comment to the church that God had been dealing with her about feeding the sheep and she did not know what He wanted. (hello)
Still, I know they were seeking God and trying to follow Him and they did spread the gospel and did a lot of good works. Very active little church. We went door to door just inviting people to church and asking them if they needed prayer for anything. We went to the nursing home and held services with the patients.
I know God had me there for a season and I grew a lot. It taught me to accept anyone and not expect christians to look or act a certain way and it gave me a lot of love for people that I normally wouldn't have interacted with. They also asked me to sing almost every week and that helped me to grow in knowledge that my talent wasn't for the congregation, but for the Lord. Something I never realized in the SDA church. I had sung in church since I was 8 and was always nervous. Now I don't get nervous at all because I don't care what they think, I'm there for the Lord and He knows how I sing anyways.
It's so interesting reading all of your thoughts. Makes me wonder what this topic might have looked like if we were all still SDA. I can just see us appalled at this stuff. Criticizing and spouting off our Pharisee knowledge of the "truth" HA! Isn't it awesome? |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 573
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 6:53 pm: | |
Hi! I have a question for those who speak in tongues during church...
Concerning the words of a post above, "we speak in tongues, interpret"..... Why not just speak English (or whatever language used there) instead of having to "interpret" tongues?
I can see the possibility and/or validity of tongues as a private prayer language but... I am unsure of its' use in public if one has to interpret anyway?
And the idea that one doesn't have the Holy Spirit unless you speak in tongues?
And falling on the floor? I've seen it happen with deacons there to discreetly cover the person with a sheet...)
I am not sure how this witnesses to Jesus. It is subject to a lot of ridicule from non-believers, and although their views don't necessarily constitute truth, it seems the preaching of the Cross has power enough to convict and sanctify.
grace always,
cindy
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 330
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 6:55 pm: | |
J.L. Packer's book, "Keep In Step with the Spirit" is a very interesting work he did in the '80's about the charismatic movement. Here's the summary I took from his book (which was a very detailed look at Pentecolstalism/charismatic practices and comparing them to the Bible): the charismatic movement is unusally orthodox in its Christian doctrines and beliefs. He felt at the time he wrote the book that many churches could benefit from the freedom and "on fire-ness" of the charismatics, and that many stilted and spiritually dry churches could learn a lot from them.
His conclusion, however, was that what charismatics (in general--and remember he was writing about 20 years ago; lots has changed in Christian worship since then) were what he called "immature". They believed in Jesus and the centrality of the cross, but they were weak in Bible study and knowledge of the Scriptures. He believed that their spiritual maturity and growth were limited by their lack of emphasis on consistent, in-depth Bible study.
I'm not remotely suggesting that all people who are charismatics are shallow spiritually. In fact, I believe there is much more cross-over (if that's even the right term) between charismatic worship and serious Bible study today than there was then. Still, I find that his conclusions might be somewhat instructive: when a believer's energy is spent seeking the gifts of the Spirit instead of seeking and knowing Jesus through his revelation in Scripture and through responding to the Holy Spirit's teaching, that believer is probably limited in his spiritual growth.
On the other hand, if a person hides in the scholarly pursuit of studying theology and "knowing" the Bible, he is probably likewise limited. Truly, I believe that pursuing Jesus and becoming increasingly vulnerable to Him by surrendering ourselves at deepening levels is the secret to spiritual growth. That growth will include gifts and nudges by the Holy Spirit as well as deepening knowledge of Scripture.
Colleen |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 610
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 8:10 pm: | |
cindy, you noted that "the preaching of the cross has power to convict and sanctify." This is true. However, when Christ was here on earth teaching, He didn't just speak, but also demonstrated the power of God. The works testified that the words were truth. The same is true today. And, hey, everything we Christians do or say gets ridicule from non-believers!
You missed the discussion on being slain in the Spirit, I guess? Go up to the top of this page and then back to the archive of June 18. It will be somewhere toward the bottom of those messages where the discussion began.
Basically the person falls because there is such a powerful sense of the presence of God. Think of it this way.....how do you think you would react if Jesus was suddenly standing in front of you...
I've not had a lot of experience with tongues in a service. But the time when I saw it, the person spoke, then there was an interpretation. Turns out the message was for us. It got our attention in that instance simply because we didn't believe in that sort of thing. Personally, I think it was just God's way of reminding us that we really didn't know everything about how He works and needed to do some listening instead of talking so much. And it was something we needed to hear certainly, we were pretty arrogant as I recall!
I can remember another service we were in with a guest speaker at our church. At the end of his sermon, he suddenly walked back to where a couple was seated. He just stood there looking at the husband for a short time, then quite calmly said, "you know, you've never hit your family with your fists. But you hit them with your words every day of the week. I think God wants you to know that there is a limit to His patience with you on this thing, your time is short. You are loosing your family. But it can be turned around, it's your decision if you are going to listen or not."
Because of some things the wife had told me only a handful of days before, I knew what had been said was true. She had told no one else in the congregation. But I still remember glancing back at the couples teenage son. That kid was sitting there with an absolutely thunderstruck look on his face. He certainly knew what was being said was true of his father's behavior at home! I have to wonder how that incident has affected the kid. Can you see it would make an impression on someone that God is definitely personally interested in your life?
By the way, within 2 weeks the man who had been spoken to was literally at death's door. Over the next month he came near death 3 times. Eventually he was put in a drug induced coma, then they couldn't bring him out of it. Eventually he did recover. I've lost track and am not sure what has happened since....except I do know that shortly after that the marriage was dissolved.
God just does stuff. He gets personally involved. Absolutely Colleen. We need the balance! If we seek the gifts instead of the giver we wil miss the mark. If we keep our nose in theology and never allow Him access to actively work thru us in His gifts, we also miss the mark. Yeah, the different ends of the table have stuff to teach each other. |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 574
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 9:05 pm: | |
Lydell, Although I probably see the "tongues" and "slain in the Spirit" isssues differently than you, I appreciate your thoughts.
I also absolutely believe God gets personally involved in our lives; the cross of Jesus fully answers any questions on that! And His Spirit remains with us in spite of our feelings!
I am very grateful for some very recent obvious answers to some specific prayers. It is an adventure to watch where and how God works....
...As to how I would react if Jesus were suddenly standing right in front of me? Wow! As the words to the current popular song say, "I can only imagine....".
I tend to feel for me it would at first be "in awe of You stand still"... and then "dance"!
grace always,
cindy
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Sharon2
Registered user
Username: Sharon2
Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 11:10 pm: | |
The gifts of the Spirit are gifts. Not everyone gets all, or in the same amounts. I am certain that Billy Graham has never spoken in tongues or been slain in the Spirit, but the fruit of his life indicates that he is a Spirit-filled man. I really believe that for every gift Satan has a counterfeit, and that you know the real thing by looking for the fruit of the person.
I remember when I used to think that being slain in the spirit and speaking in tongues were just put-ons by emotionally unstable people. I could see no sensible reason that they should be part of any real religious experience. Then I met the most genuinely loving, Godly people. In all my years in Adventism, I had never met people who were so willing to put themselves out for other people, or who so genuinely lived by every word of scripture and not legalistically. Those people prayed in tongues and from time to time fell out on the floor. Their walk with the Lord was so genuine, so transparent that I was amazed and I wanted what they had. I wanted all of it. I have experienced both. When I try to explain the experience on an intellectual level, all I can say is that I believe it has to do with dying to yourself, and letting God control and deal with inner issues.
I would like to add that where I worship, we have a pretty structured worship service. Rarely would you hear tongues during the service unless it was someone praying quietly or during a pause in the praise and worship. Mostly during pauses between songs there are words of knowledge in English. It is usually in prayer after the service or in smaller more informal gatherings where people are ministering to each other that speaking in tongues and people falling down under the power of the Spirit happens. A very firmly embedded principle in our congregation is if the Lord isnít moving we are not going to try to force it, but if the Lord is moving we want all that He has for us.
Sharon
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 363
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 7:06 am: | |
Sharon, you make a good point about counterfeit. I heard Mormons use tongues and was shocked. Since they don't believe in the Biblical Christ, where was it coming from? My suspicion is the counterfeit. |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 90
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 1:21 pm: | |
Well, I am away for two days, and then there are all these posts. A lot of interesting points have been made. Just a few thoughts really, not necessarily related.
I have been away helping with final examinations at the Bible College I teach at, by the way. It is a Pentecostal college, and we gave 15 students oral examinations in dogmatics, each examination lasting about half an hour. They all had to answer on different subjects, and tongues did not come up once (though prophecy did). Just raising my objection to the notion that tongues are the only thing Pentecostals talk about :-)
I guess how people react to various teachings and practices depends so much on their background and experience, as well the Bible.
People have commented on other threads that they prefer to find their identity in Christ and not in some church or theological system. I agree absolutely. I far prefer to be talk about being a Christian, or a disciple of Jesus than to end up talking endlessly about denominations. Nevertheless, theological differences do have a habit of coming up in conversation, don't they?
Now it comes to experience. Part of my "just being a Christian" has always involved being part of a church where spiritual gifts have been exercised in the meetings, over a period of about 25 years, almost from the very start of my Christian life. So for me, that is just perfectly normal and standard, and has never really been an issue. It has never been the only thing going on in meetings, it is just one. We have also always had worship, Bible teaching, communion, and prayer. I have never felt there was an overemphasis on gifts, it is just something that we did, or do. If there is an emphasis, then it is on preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
I mentioned that I am intellectual type, so I love studying, and as a Christian, I have read loads of theology, and Christian books of all sorts. I love learning. I also love to see the Holy Spirit doing stuff. I don't see why there has to be a conflict here.
Another thought is, what is orthodox anyway? Someone once made the cynical comment, that "a cult is someone else°¶s religion" (I don't agree with that definition, by the way).
Of course, everyone is totally convinced that the particular theological system they grew up with, or have been taught, is the absolute truth, and therefore has God's stamp of approval, whereas everyone else's is heterodox, heretical, cultic, or at least, a little bit off (said somewhat tongue in cheek, of course). When someone calls another person "heterodox" it is also necessary to look where they themselves are coming from. Are they just teaching the Bible, or are they making lots of assumptions alongside?
I agree with the comment that many Charismatics are immature, and that fruit (of a Christ-like character) is more important than gifts when assessing someone's ministry. Gifts are free, but fruit develops over a period of time. Just because someone can heal the sick, it does not mean that everything they teach is correct, or they are necessarily to be followed as an example, as their fruit may not be in order. People make the mistake of following people with gifts, because they are spectacular, and then end up being led astray. That is something my pastor taught with great emphasis (in a Pentecostal church).
Colleen, great points on immaturity. I just think there is immaturity in all camps, which leads to people not listening to each other, falling out over misunderstandings and so on. I agree that Christians of all varieties have much to learn from one another. One thing that comes to mind, that Gyula mentioned, is that at the Adventist college he attended they stressed that whereas many Christians teach about going to heaven when you die, what is really important is the resurrection of the dead. I actually think they have a very good point there, and I have since taken that on board, and teach more about the resurrection (though I do not accept the soul-sleep doctrine). I think it is even possible to learn things from those who are most certainly "heterodox," we just need to make sure we have the filter turned on :-)
Cindy, the reason that on occasions we have tongues with interpretation in meetings, is that the Apostle Paul taught that this is one possible thing that may happen in church meetings (see 1 Cor 14: 26-33). I personally would be happy to have people prophesy instead (in Hungarian, in our case), and that does in fact happen somewhat more frequently. I do not know why God chooses to do it like that sometimes. If I understood why God does everything that He does, in the way that he chooses to do it, I guess I would be God. I don't have the answer as to why, we do it because the Bible teaches it.
I think that will do for now,
God bless, everyone,
Adrian
P.S. I am leaving for a trip to England next Tuesday, so for one thing, I would ask for your prayers, as I have to drive about 2000 miles in three days (OK, maybe that is no big deal in America, but for me, it is), and also, it means I will not be around for a while.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 333
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 10:40 am: | |
Adrain, I absolutely agree that immaturity is everywhere, not just among charismatics! And I love the fact that Jesus puruses us, when we are his, and continually brings us face to face with LIFE, drawing us to surrender and trust and mature and deeper and deeper levels. This arena of our lives, I believe, is where our free choice is especially significant. God IS sovereign; he knows us from eternity; he predestines us to be conformed to the image of Jesus; yet we choose whether or not to surrender to him when he calls us to trust.
Have a reat trip, Adrian--how long will you be in England? I presume you have family there? We'll be praying for you.
Colleen |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
Thanks Colleen,
I am hoping to be in England and Wales for about a month. I really need a break at the moment. I feel very tired, as I seem to have been really busy for a long time.
My mother lives in Northern England, and the church I was in for 10 years, and which supports me, is in Bangor, North Wales. My son also lives there.
As I am driving, I hope to visit friends in other places too, on the way, including some in Germany.
I am looking forward to the trip.
God bless,
Adrian |
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