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Archive through May 04, 2006Dennis20 5-04-06  12:39 pm
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Heretic
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your discussion of Walter Martin and whether or not he classed EGW as a false prophet got my attention. I have here at home a series of 3 audio tapes of the "John Ankerberg Show", from the early to mid 80's (I assume) where Walter Martin and William Johnsonn, editor of the Adventist Review, discussed/debated the troubling issues of Adventism, in particular the IJ and EGW. During this program, Walter Martin uses the term "false prophet" several times in his questioning of Johnsonn. Here's an example:

"I'd be interested to see what evidence you would accept, personally as a Christian, that would tell you that Mrs. White was a false prophet. What evidence would you accept?" He then asked again when he wouldn't answer directly what proof he would accept that she was a "false prophet".

Those tapes are still available on the John Ankerberg website: www.johnankerberg.org

The Martin-Johnsonn tapes are called "Seventh-day Adventism: Who is Telling the Truth?". There is also another tape series available with Desmond Ford and Walter Rea as guests called "Seventh-day Adventism at the Crossroads". The first one is $12 and the second is $6.

I think both would be of interest to several of you here, the Martin-Johnsonn show in particular. If any of you do order them I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Heretic
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patria,

I was wondering, if you happen to be reading this, if maybe you could clarify for all of us which popular Christian broadcaster it was that you heard say that Ellen White is the false prophetess of the SDA church (as you mentioned in your article in Proclamation and at the FAF Weekend).

Was it Hank Hanegraaff that said that? Or someone else?

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2006)
Riverfonz
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hank Hanegraaf does acknowledge that EGW was a false prophet --I have heard him say it on his radio show.

Heretic,
That is interesting. I was not aware that Martin used the term, but it looks like he was using the term in the form of a question to Johnson. But he may have changed his written assessment. I would be interested in follow-up.

Stan
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 12:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've seen the video tapes of that interview twice, but since I do not have them and thus cannot quote them directly, I've not mentioned them much.

Martin DID use the words "false prophet", and he drove pointed questions to Johnsson repeatedly, as J would simply not answer them directly. Martin questioned J about Ellen and her function as a prophet and about the church's true use of her, and he repeatedly questioned Johnsson about how the church actually views the way God deals with sin/forgiveness in humans. In each case, and repeatedly, Johnsson refused to answer Martin's questions.

Martin was increasingly and visibly agitated. He was not satisfied, and the interview ended very unsatsifactoriy. Johnsson was as uncomfortable as Martin was, but in a different way. Martin was agitated; Johnsson was just plain tight: tight mouth and face, arms crossed, etc.

Heretic, maybe you can confirm this, but I seem to remember Martin even saying, near the end of the interview, that perhaps he had been misled and perhaps the cult word might yet be appropriate. I can't remember exactly what he said, but this is the impression I carry of the ending. Can you confirm or straighten me out, Heretic?

I do remember that Martin kept asking Johnsson why they didn't republish Questions on Doctrine. He kept saying that its going out of print put the lie to what they had said in it, and if they would just republish it, his questions would be answered. Johnsson, of course, kept dodging.

Colleen
Chris
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I am not an enemy of Adventism. I am a friend of Adventist people and a lover of truth. I did my level best at great risk - in 1956 and from then on ñ to take a strong position on the basis of Questions on Doctrine. If they are going to repudiate the book and turn back the pages, I have no other alternative but to rewrite the chapter in The Kingdom of the Cults. And I'll have no other alternative but to come out and do another tape or series of tapes. I mean, just lay the whole thing out. I don't want to do that. I'd much rather see them come around to a solid position.

-Walter Martin in an Adventist Currents interview, Vol. 1, No. 1, July, 1983




Would the recent reprinting of Questions on Doctrine, with footnotes by C. Goldstein redefining and obfuscating the answers, qualify as a repudiation of the original work?

Chris
Ric_b
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent post Chris. I had remembered coming across that statement from Walter Martin before and couldn't find it as part of this discussion. I don't have the new and improved QOD. Do you have some good examples of where the footnote comments obscure the answers even further? Thanks.
Cw
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, no foregiveness is necessary. I did ask for your input by being on this forum and sharing my concerns for D. So you are not "off base" and I appreciate your comments.

Having said that and sleeping on it, I know my limitations. We can do all things through Christ but I don't feel Christ leading me to make this false doctrine feel at home in my family. And I know those were not your words. I may sound pretty hard core in this but I have been accused of being TOO genuine and speaking what I feel to be Truth. My wife says I am the most "black and white" person she has ever known and she blames it on my 37 plus years as a police officer. She's probably right. I could be "not rude" to J but I could not be warm and fuzzy toward him. I want him to know that he would not want me as a father in law. He should marry into an SDA family that will think he is the greatest son in law in the world. He would not get that here. And I have told D that my love for her is unconditional and always will be. I feel no such obligation toward J. I want him to go far away and the sooner the better. I haven't said that to him face to face because I don't get the chance but I know he knows it and D, and probably J, knows of this forum and may be reading it. I hope so.

As for D being forced to choose between J and me. I don't see a correlation there. It's apples and oranges-husbands and parents. D is putting herself in a position of having to make the most importent choices of her life; Following the true gospel or following EGW, choosing to live J's and his parents beliefs or choosing this family's main stream Christianity. I am not the one who put her in that bad place, I am the one trying to pray her out of it. She is already demonstrating an eagerness to believe J's dad over me in that his word trumps mine. For instance I told her EGW is a false prophet. She went to him and took his word when he said "EGW is surely not a false prophet, but she was a great teacher". Does that sound like a famous conversation in the Garden of Eden?

Anyway, I know there are people who could pull that off, being buddies with J, but not me. He helped us move last year and we got along fine but I had promised D that I would not discuss SDA with him and I kept my word. I was desparate for help in moving and would have hired illegal immigrants, of which there are plenty in California, at that point so I kept my word. So I appreciate those suggestions and please don't hesitate in making them. But I hope you will understand that we are not all capable of that. If God called me to welcome J into my family he would give me the Grace with which to do it. However, I feel that the Holy Spirit is the One who allerted me to this danger in the first place and is urging me to pray that the danger be removed. CW
Jackob
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric,

Iím dissapointed by Walter Martin in his evaluation of Ellen White presented in ìKingdom of Cultsî because he treated Ellen White differently than he treated Joseph Smith. He presented Ellen as being a christian woman, deluded, and one of his main reasons is the fact that she believed in the deity of Christ. Why am I dissapointed? Because itís hard for me to believe, almost impossible, that a man with a mind and biblical knowledge like Walter Martin canforget or just dismiss the following biblical episodes


quote:

Luke 4:41 41 And demons also came out of many, crying, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.

Luke 8:27-28 27 When Jesus had stepped out on land, there met him a man from the city who had demons. For a long time he had worn no clothes, and he had not lived in a house but among the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."




This is a clear proof that even demons can proclaim the deity of Christ. Also they are monotheists, not tritheists or bitheists


quote:

James 2:19 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe- and shudder!




After I saw these clear facts, I cannot buy Walter Martinís argument. I hope it is not necessary to develop the ideaÖÖÖ

Actually there are two problems with Walter Martinís evaluation of adventism. I will take them separately. First is the fact that he accepted the explanations of RA Anderson, Froom, Reid, about adventism. And second is the evaluation of adventism based on his personal research.

About the way adventists leaders explained adventism to Walter Martin, I find that is very difficult for me to believe that these persons were evangelical christians. Why? Because they actually rewrote the histoy of adventism, and lied about what were the historical theological positions of adventism. George Knight in the annotated edition recognized that in the key disputed beliefs the adventists leaders were dishonest. They lied to Martin about what the church believed in the past. Human nature of Christ, deity of Christ, atonement. I want to give just a single example.

One of the things pointed by George Knight is the fact that the adventists leaders said that the adventist pioneers had a larger view of atonement, not limiting it to the cross, but including the ministry of Jesus in the sanctuary. Well, the pioneers did not had a larger view of atonement, they had a different view. They excluded the atonement at the cross entirely, and placed the atonement only in the heavenly sanctuary after 1844. In the March 2004 issue of Proclamation you will find this case mentioned, http://formeradvent.temp.powweb.com/Proclamation2004_MarApr.pdf

Another point will be the historical position of the church about the human nature of Christ. The church believe entirely in a sinful human nature, not sinless. But the leaders said that only those fanatics, the lunatic fringe of adventism believed it. They lied saying that historically the body of the adventist church believed that Christ had a sinless human nature. They even wrote a heading in QOD on a chapter full of quotations from Ellen White stating ìTook Sinless Human Natureî leaving the false impression that these are Ellen Whiteís words, byt, as Geroge Knight recognized, she stated the opposite ìTook fallen human natureî

Seeing all these lies, I came to the conclusion that Read, Froom and RA Anderson cannot be evangelical adventists, even christians, only a bunch of liers who wanted to give Walter Martin what he wanted to hear, the right answers, the correct answers, even if these answers were lies. Donít forget that these were the answers neccesary to remove the cult label. And hearing these answers Walter Martin was satisfied and removed the cult name.

The second issue was the research done by Walter Martin himself. I cannot understand why he wanted official responses from the church, from William Johnson on the mentioned television show. After Glacier View, and the defrocking of Desmond Ford has anyone any doubts about the OFFICIAL position of the church? Iím sorry, but facts speak louder than words. If someone wants to lie, his words can be the right words but his body language traits him. The church can say that believing in sabbath is not essential for salvation, like the leaders said in QOD, but they will label as apostates those adventists who rest in the daily sabbath rests, and donít keep the Sabbath shadow. These facts speaks louder than words and speaks clearly about the official position of the church. What more Walter Martin needed to apply again the cultic label to SDA church? People burned at the stake? Witch trials?

Forgive me if I speak passionately about this subject, but I'm amazed how the SDA church, after defrocking Desmond Ford, can be still viewed as a christian church because Walter Martin has not yet received an official response.

We enter here on a practical issue. As long as SDA can capitalize on QOD and Walter Martin's evaluation, the church will feel safe to trat people like she wanted, defrocking, labeling them as apostates. Who cares? She can do all this outrageous things and still be viewed as not a cult. She can do all what cults do, the shunning, the character assasination of former members, all the mind control techniques, but she will not be identified as she really is and was. Even the voice of her president, Paulson, will be considered only his personal opinion, not an official position. But, giving the fact that he said emphatically that nothing changed about the investigative judgment and sanctuary, what more OFFICIAL statement do you want to see and will be an authoritative voice? Who can speak more authoritatively about the position of the church than Jan Paulson? How many victims of OFFICIAL abuse must appear before someone from the evangelical respected leaders will wake up and apply again the label cult? Remember, all will suffer because of these things, and more and more sad stories will appear as long as the church is in no way constrained to act in a christian way toward it's members. Who cares? The church eats the cake and tommorow will eat the same cake, and the cake will not be consummed. At infinitum. Huh, nice picture, isn't so? (Smile)
Riverfonz
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,
I hear your passion, and as I said before, I think you should leave SDA. Whether we call it a cult or a false gospel, it still is the same, and your form of SDA in Romania is cultic.

However, remember Martin died in '89, and many other cult experts have re-evaluated Adventism, with the most credible work done by Kenneth Samples, who now works with Hugh Ross. Samples, Josh McDowell, Ruth Tucker, and everyone else I know of who has written cult books since then has concluded that Adventism does not deserve the cult label as a whole. I believe they all agree that the historic branch of SDA does deserve that laabel, and I agree. Another very influential pastor in my life, John MacArthur--who is so critical of so much else in Christendom--will go so far as to say that EGW was not a true prophet of God, but doesn't outright call her false, and he has lived among enough SDAs personally that he will not even call them a cult. That speaks volumes to me.

Stan
Dd
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CW,
It is not my job to talk for the Holy Spirit. I trust you are listening and willing to follow His leading. I love the promises we have telling us that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor and Guide. I am confident those promises are true yesterday, today and tomorrow. Just because I think one way doesn't make it the only way. Jesus is The Truth and The Way and The Light... I am confident you are relying on Him! :-)

Denise
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cw, I agree with Denise. Jesus is the One you answer to, not us! And I do get that visceral reaction when I read that D is turning to J's dad for "truth" over you. I'm so sorry.

Continuing to pray for you and for her...
Colleen
Dennis
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jacob,

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. Indeed, the SDA Church has not changed in any part of the world. Recently, I listened to some sermons by Randy Roberts (his Galatians series) from the Loma Linda University Church website. Truly, the official GC leadership can sleep soundly after hearing his sermons on Galatians.

Additionally, Randy Roberts has not parted company with Adventism's favorite Bible commentator, Ellen G. White. If in doubt, one needs only to read the information on the LLU Church website. All in all, Jacob, the SDA church in Bucharest, Romania is only culturally different from Loma Linda, California--not theologically. I agree with Jan Paulsen, the current GC President, that NOTHING has changed in Adventism.

Dennis Fischer
Jeremy
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, I just listened to Randy Roberts, to see what all the "fuss" is about.

All I can say is wow, wow, WOW!

Folks, THIS is what we're calling the true gospel?!?!

I just listened to a salvation by works false gospel.

Very subtle, yes. But it was not the Gospel.

I just heard Randy Roberts twist/add to Galatians 3 and say that as we "began our spiritual life" by accepting Jesus or just crying out to "God" (or something--he wasn't really clear on that and assumed everyone listening had "begun") through faith, so we continue towards the goal of heaven by living for God (works) through faith.

It may have been a little more subtle than that--but that was what he said.

I have to agree with Dennis--nothing has changed.

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on May 12, 2006)
Chris
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rick, I apologize to you and the forum on two counts. First, I made a factual error in saying that Goldstein provided the new notes in the revised version. He did not. George R. Knight edited and annotated the new version. I was confused. Secondly, I based my characterization of the annotations in the new QOD not on primary research, but on secondary sources. That is hardly a good research method and suggests my comments may have been over stated given the low-level of research I have done.

The following quotes are pulled from two Adventist sources. The first is from the Review:


quote:

Although the church never disavowed the book, debate over one section on the nature of Jesus Christ and whether the Savior had a propensity to sin, (contained in "Appendix B" of the original volume) eventually sidelined its distribution. Another conflict Adventist critics found in the book centered on the question of whether Christ's atonement was completed at the cross. Both QOD and Ellen White, in some of her writings, referred to the atonement as being "completed" at the cross, though Mrs. White also taught that it is applied to believers during the present judgment being conducted in the heavenly sanctuary. Thus, she could speak of a "final" atonement.

Because of these conflicting areas of Adventist thought, some church leaders, in particular a retired theologian named M. L. Andreasen, claimed the book did not properly represent Adventist teaching. Andreasen, who believed QOD had removed one of the "foundation pillars" of Adventist thinking in its view of the atonement, began a campaign of broadsides against the book, that resulted in the suspension of his ministerial credentials. After reconciliation with church leaders three days before his passing in February 1962, Andreasen's credentials were restored the following month. (Knight's commentary in the republished volume makes it clear that some of Andreasen's complaints about certain sections--particularly the controversial "Appendix B"--were valid.)




This second quote comes from www.greatcontrovery.org and is attributed to Dr. Woodrow Whidden (someone I studied under at Andrews):


quote:

The core of Andreasen's theology is that the atonement involved three essential phases. The first consisted of Christ's sinless life of perfect obedience to God's law; the second was His death on the cross where ëChrist finished His work as victim and sacrifice.í6 While these first two atonement phases were certainly foundational to Andreasen's teaching on the atonement, it was the third that contained the essential focus of his theology, and Andreasen had laid it out in clear and unmistakable language: ëIn the third phase Christ demonstrates that man can do what He did, with the same help He had. This phase includes His session at the right hand of God, His high priestly ministry, and the final exhibition of His saints in their last struggle with Satan, and their glorious victory.í This third phase, Andreasen said, is now in progress in the sanctuary above and in the church below. Christ broke the power of sin in His lifework on earth. He destroyed sin and Satan by His death. He is now eliminating and destroying sin in His saints on earth. This is a part of the cleansing of the true sanctuary.7

The key theological principle that undergirded this Most Holy Place phase of the atonement was Andreasen's Christology. He firmly held that Christ had taken a sinful human nature, just like Adam's after the Fall (in other words, a sinful nature with tendencies to sin). Thus with the empowering Christ as an example to His last generation followers, the final atonement could be effected from the heavenly sanctuary as it played out through the sinless perfected characters of the embattled saints on earth. This final atonement, final generation theology was most clearly set forth in the chapter ëThe Last Generationí in Andreasen's well-known book The Sanctuary Service.8




If in fact, Knight is seeking to legitimize, to any degree, Andreasen's theology through the new footnotes, then I believe it is a serious issue. But again, I have not done the primary research so I should have phrased my original question differently. I seek your forgiveness for my errors.

Humbly in Christ,

Chris




(Message edited by Chris on May 12, 2006)
Jeremy
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't understand what the question is with the atonement. It is clearly stated in their official Fundamental Beliefs (and their official book explaining them) that Christ is performing an atonement starting in 1844.

Jeremy
Ric_b
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, from Seventh-day Adventist Believe

quote:

On the cross the penalty for human sin was fully paid. Divine justice was satisfied. From a legal perspective the world was restored to favor with God (Rom. 5:18). The atonement, or reconciliation, was completed on the cross as foreshadowed by the sacrifices, and the penitent believer can trust in this finished work of our Lord.


This is a core and ongoing debate within SDAism. To dismiss the questions offhandedly as being settled among SDAs does not do justice to the actual teaching of the church in this regard.
Jackob
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will post below from the introduction of the annotated edition of QOD, written by George Knight. It will be a long quotation, but it will be worth reading.


quote:

Andreasenís discontent begun to surface with the September 1956 publication in Eternity, with itís assignment of those who held his position on the sinful human nature of Christ to the Ñlunatic fringeî of adventism. That smoldering discontent brought aut into the open when Froom published a February 1957 Ministry article on the atonement. Especially offensive to Andreasen was a sentence reffering to Christís death for every sinner that read: ÑThat is the tremendous scope of the sacrificial act of the crossóa complete, perfect, and final atonement for manís sin.î What Froom meant by that sentence was that the sacrifice on the cross was a full and complete sacrifice (in terms of the sacrificial aspect of the atonement) for sin. But that is not the way Andreasen read it on February 15 when he misunderstood and misquoted Froomís words. Andreasen repeatedly quoted Froom as saying that îíthe sacrificial act on the cross (is) a complete, perfect, and final atonement for manís sins.íî But Andreasenís rendering of Froom sentence changed his meaning. The word Ñisî is not in Froom original sentence. Rather, he followed the word Ñcrossî with a mid-sentence dash, with the words following the dash functioning as an explanatory phrase to the several words that went before. Thus Froomís meaning was that the cross was a complete sacrifice (or the sacrificial aspect of the atonement). But Andreasen, in quoting Froom, removed the dash and supplied the word Ñisî in parantheses. With that one small stroke he changed Froomís meaning from a completed sacrifice (or sacrificial aspect of the atonement) on the cross to a completed atonement on the cross. That interpretation, of course, put Froom and his colleagues aut of harmony with traditional Adventism, which had often used atonement exclusively to refer to Christís ehavenly, day-of-atonement ministry.

That Froom was not abandoning the traditional adventist understanding is clear from the context of the controverted statement. Two paragraphs earlier he had written that Ñthe term Çatonement,í which we are considering, obviously has a much broader meaning than has been commonly conceived. Despite the belief of multitudes in the [evangelical] churches about us, it is not, on the one hand, limited just to the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross. On the other hand, neither is it confined to the ministry of our heavenly High Priest in the sanctuary above, on the antitypical day of atonementóor hour of Godís judgmentóas some of our [Adventist] forefathers first erroneously thought and wrote. Instead, as attested by the Spirit of prophecy, it clearly embraces bothóone aspect being incomplete without the other, and each being the indispensable complement of the other.î

The context following the controverted statement is equally clear. Thus the sentence that follows Froomís statement that the sacrificial act of Christ was complete and final states Ñthat [the sacrificial act on the cross] is not all, nor is it enough. That completed act of atonement on the cross is valueless to any soul unless, and until, it is applied by Christ our High Priest to, and appropiated by, the individual recipient.î Thus Froom was not substituting atonement on the cross for atonement in the heavenly sanctuary, but was referring to what he and Anderson would consistently refer to as Ñatonement providedî at the cross and Ñatonement appliedî in Christís heavenly ministry during the antitypical day of atonement. In conclusion, it can be said that while it is true that Froom believed that Christís death on the cross was complete as a sacrifice of atonement, he did not hold that it represented a completed atonement.

In that position Froom and his fellow conferees were in good company. After all, Ellen White pictured the Father as bowing before the cross Ñin recognition of itís perfection. ÇIt is enough, He said, ÇThe atonement is complete.íî Again she had written that when Christ Ñoffered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people.î She, of course , also used the word Ñatonementî in dealing with Christís heavenly work in the present era. In addition, it is of interest to note that Andreasen had claimed in 1848 that Ñon the cross Christ finished His work as victim and sacrifice.î Beyond that, Andreasen had never restricted the meaning of atonement to the heavenly ministry of Christ. He perceptively noted that Ñthe atonement is not a single event, but a process, reaching down through the ages, which will not be finished until time shall be no more.î In fact Andreasen himself considered the cross to be the conclusion to what he called the Ñsecond phaseî in ÑChristís work of atonement.î Thus, in essence, Andreasen and Ellen White were in harmony with Froom that there needed to be a heavenly ministry to fully apply the benefits of that completed work of sacrifice, even though they at times used differing words to express their understanding.




Well, after reading these explanations it becomes clear that adventists, in their officials declarations of faith, had given a different meaning to the expression Ñatonement completed on the crossî. They use convoluted statements just to mask the fact that they believe that the atonement is not completed on the cross, but for them itís a process, an unfinished process. And because of this situation nobody can be sure of his salvation, until this process of applying the benefits of the sacrifice of Christ is finished. There are conditions to fulfill if you want Christ to apply the benefits. You cannot enjoy the full benefits, or the final benefits, you have acces only to a partial salvation, only the past sins are covered. In no way you can believe that you will not come in the judgment, as long as the blood of Christ is not still applied to your future. Only your past sins are covered, the future sins still can condemn you in the judgment. You must wait until the final end to be sure that the process of atonement is completed in your case. Then, and only then you will have the entire benefits of the death of Christ, the assurance that you are forever saved, that you will not be condemned in the judgment.

Atonement completed on the cross is not atonement completed on the cross, itís just semantics.
Jackob
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I forgot to give the references: QOD Annotated Edition, pages xviii-xx.
Chris
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jackob. It does sound as if Knight may be attempting to salvage the historic SDA doctrine on atonement via his comments in the revised QOD. Thanks for doing the research on this.

Chris

(Message edited by Chris on May 13, 2006)
Jeremy
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly, Jackob. We all know that the SDA church (now) teaches that there was an atonement on the cross. Ellen also taught this (some of the time) and even referred to it as a "completed atonement." And so the SDA church refers to it as a "completed atonement."

But Froom lied to Walter Martin in so doing, as shown above by George Knight. Froom never would have told Martin what Froom himself wrote above, about "one aspect being incomplete without the other"!

It is all a deception. Of course they say that there was a "completed atonement" on the cross--but then they say that there is another atonement starting in 1844.

Here is what their official belief book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe..., says:


quote:

The application of the atoning blood during the mediatorial ministry of the priest was also seen as a form of atonement (Lev. 4:35). The English term atonement implies a reconciliation between two estranged parties. As the atoning death of Christ reconciled the world to God, so His mediation, or the application of the merits of His sinless life and substitutionary death, makes reconciliation or atonement with God a personal reality for the believer.

[...]

The Day of Atonement, then, illustrates the judgment process that deals with the eradication of sin. The atonement performed on this day "foreshadowed the final application of the merits of Christ to banish the presence of sin for all eternity and to accomplish the full reconciliation of the universe into one harmonious government under God."

--http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm




And they even admit that, in some sense, Satan makes atonement. Of course, they have to admit this, since Leviticus 16 says that the Scapegoat makes atonement.

Of course, Ellen G. White made it very clear in her writings that the scapegoat (Satan) makes atonement for our sins.

And then she made it even more clear that Satan is our savior in this horrific quote:


quote:

"Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scapegoat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness. A little longer and Jesus' work will be finished in the sanctuary." (Manuscript Releases, Volume Nineteen, page 131, paragraph 3.)




No Christians have ever taught, in the entire history of the church, that the scapegoat is Satan. Some Christians have said that the word Azazel represents Satan, but they do not teach that the goat represents Satan! No Christian church has ever taught that in history. As far as I know, the only other church besides the SDA church which teaches that Satan is the Scapegoat is the Church of Satan. If you want to be completely creeped out, Google it. And that is not me "trying" to compare the SDA church with the Church of Satan. It is a comparison which the SDA church has inflicted upon themselves by teaching such a horrific (yes, satanic) scapegoat doctrine. Those are simply the facts. Please don't shoot the messenger.

By the way, it was realizing how wrong the SDA scapegoat doctrine is that immediately convinced me, my sister, and my mother that EGW is a false prophet. I never liked the doctrine even when I was taught it growing up--in fact, I resisted it. I really feel that it is one of the worst doctrines ever.

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on May 13, 2006)
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777

Post Number: 509
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, is there an ebook version of the QOD or did you type this all in. If there is an ebook version I'd love to get it to read.

Richard

rtruitt@mac.com


Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 207
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Richard, there is not an electronic version, I typed all the words myself. I had the book, it's not mine, my scholar friend gave it to me to convince me that adventism is truly evangelical.
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 520
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, I agree with you about what a horrific doctrine the scapegoat doctrine truly is. However I will put forth another doctrine related to the sanctuary/IJ as perhaps the worst SDA doctrine ever. The idea that we can and must vindicate God by living without sin, and thereby save Him from Satan's charges. In SDA theology man's perfect life saves God. Is there a more backwards, and blasphemous doctrine possible?

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