| Author |
Message |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 503
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |     |
This whole talk about inerrancy makes me think about something that's recorded in the gospels. Matt. 7:29 is the concluding verse of a story in which Christ is teaching about the wise and foolish men. The wise built his house on the rock, which stood fast even when the torrential rain and hurricane strength winds came. The foolish built his house on sand, and when the torrential winds and hurricane winds came, the house fell down. The people listening were amazed as Jesus taught as one with authority---and not as their scribes did.
Jesus used and taught the Scriptures with authority, as He obviously found them trustworthy and accurate. I can't see those two adjectives being used to describe a text shot through with errors. How would you know if what you are teaching is actual truth? There's always something new being discovered, isn't there?
Instead, I'll stay with what the Bible says about itself; 'For all scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness'. 1 Tim. 3:16
Bill
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 122
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 5:56 am: | |
Loneviking wrote:
Instead, I'll stay with what the Bible says about itself; 'For all scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness'. 1 Tim. 3:16
Letís just look at your statement Bill, why do you look to the scripture for teaching, for correction, for training in righteousness?
Isnít it because your conscience bears witness that this is the word of God?
Would it be just as good to take down your old battered copy of Moby Dick, would your conscience then agree with that?
After all, says some, the scriptures are of full of contradiction and error.
After all says some, there is no God, some say he is in the trees and plants.
What happened to you Bill, to one day begin to look to the Bible with such confidence?
You look to it with such confidence and yet many donít, what is the difference between your conscience and theirs?
After all, the doctors can slice you and dice you but cannot seem to find a conscience to lift out and examine. The doc showed me slices of my sons head on the computer monitor but neither one of us said ìOh. There is his conscienceî
What is the difference between your conscience and an Adventist conscience who finds God in the mind and breath, mental ability or EGW?
What happened to your conscience Bill to one day leave the ìRemnant?î or is it that you just got more educated than you were before? Did you take Adventist doctrine to court with you? After all, it all sounded so ìreasonableî.
Just why is it that my conscience bears witness that you have been ìBorne again?.
What happened to you Bill to come to love the Bible so much that you rely on it completely, what about your law books, donít you look to torts law for guidance?
After all some say God doesnít still speak to us today, what got into you, did you receive some kind of blunt trauma injury, a two by four upside the head or something?
After all, if I canít lift your conscience out and study it under the electron microscope, compare it between two or three more how in the world am I going to know the difference? You might be a spy or a double agent or something.
What lead you to make such a statement Bill, donít you have a lot of book larnin?
Tell me Bill, what does the super educated who finds all these contradictions and errors do with Isaiah 53 and Jesus?
What does the super Sabbath keeper do with Isaiah 53:10, when you make his soul an offering for sin?
You see bill, the problem with me is they bought me books and bought me books and all I did was eat the covers off, and that is my excuse for going along with you. Or is it?
Now see here what you have done Bill? You have gone and loosed a whole barrage of questions, how, oh how will I ever be able to answer all this stuff except I just go along with you and read my Bible with confidence. After all there is the old saying ì a Bible a day keeps the doctor awayî or was that a grape a day?
Your friend and go alonger.
River
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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 557
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 6:01 am: | |
River,
Thank you for all of your posts.
Here is an old thread which speaks of a few of these things. I don't have enough time this evening to get into it, however I've heard the Call, brother.
Here are a few pictures He's given me which come close (but not nearly all the way)...
http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2006/08/blessing-tears.html
http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2005/05/rain.html
http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2005/06/jujika-kara.html
http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2006/09/reaching-for-gods-heart.html
In Him,
Ramone |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 123
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 7:38 am: | |
Ramone,
Thank you for the link, I would like to share with you (or) interested parties what I meant when I made the statement that I had been into deep intercessory prayer only once in 35 years. This incident was about 25 years ago.
I was concerned about my brother in laws salvation so on Saturday I invited him to our church, he says ìOh, I might be able to make itî but I felt in my heart that he would not come. On Sunday morning I went into the bedroom and knelt down beside the bed (my prayer closet) shut the door and locked it and told my wife ìDonít let anyone interrupt meî so there beside the bed I began to think about Frank, about eternity, and I began to ìcontend for his soulî I began to be broken and for the first time I believe God allowed me to experience his brokenness, his heart, I donít know how long I was there that morning, my knees did not hurt, but I must have been there quite a while for when I tried to stand I could not, my legs didnít work right, after about 5 minutes I was again able to walk, I walked out of that bedroom knowing that the old wood alter had another client that night, the result was that he came to church that night and about midway through the service he ran to the alter that night and repented.
This stuff is heart stuff. I just sensed in that experience that I had experienced battle in the spiritual realm, I canít prove it but I know it.
And that is what I meant about ìcontending for soulsî, there is a depth of prayer that we do not experience daily, but nonetheless, no less real.
I donít believe it is hard to come by, I just think that I have neglected it on my own and to the determent of souls of even that of my own family.
I have no excuse.
However I have slowly been coming around to the conclusion in talking with you folk about this spirit entity thing that we most of us seem to agree is real, and at the root cause of this deception, is that I am going to have to reach the point to where I am going to have to find again find this ìdeep intercessory prayerî or quit yelling about how bad I want to help my ìAdventist friendsî. I am coming to the point to where I have to fish or cut bait.
Now that is for me, not any of you, you got your job and Iíve got mine.
I just do not know any other way. Itís not an easy thing to lay the old flesh on the cross and I donít readily find it within myself.
I guess they missed this stuff in theology class or else I missed a class.
I cannot explain this ìDoing battle in the spiritî thing, or the reason of the necessity of it. My heart just tells me it is.
Hey, come back and tell me how wrong I am, give me your theology so I can justify myself, make me feel good. Tell me there is another way and I can get out of it. I really donít think you will succeed but you can try.
I will still have my own heart knowledge to contend with when you are done speaking.
And speaking of this eternity thing, I since that eternity means eternity, its just another one of those ìheartî things with me, canít explain it.
River
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Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 306
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 9:13 am: | |
"I was referring to working in Gods Kingdom in a labor of love alongside the Lord, not for special rewards, but because we love Christ, I might have picked a better scripture but I still go with what the principal is.
in Christ. " River
I agree that we are working on the foundation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but the scripture you mentioned does not speak of work, neither works for rewards or works of love.
In Christ |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 125
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 11:10 am: | |
Mwh,
you are correct, bad verse to make referral too in that context. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 504
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 2:24 pm: | |
River wrote:
What happened to you Bill, to one day begin to look to the Bible with such confidence?
You look to it with such confidence and yet many donít, what is the difference between your conscience and theirs?
-------------------------------------
River, River, River (shaking my head)---the answer is that I got to hanging around a bunch of folks who believed Hebrews 4:12 literally meant what it says: 'for the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart'.
They believed that the words in Scripture had a power to them. They also believed that everybody had a soul that could respond to that power. They didn't see this verse as just something poetic, but instead saw it as a daily reality. After a couple of years it finally hit me that their approach to the Bible made sense and that approach was the one the Bible lays out for us to follow. The SDA approach was just too flawed to continue with it.
River also wrote:
What happened to you Bill to come to love the Bible so much that you rely on it completely, what about your law books, donít you look to torts law for guidance?
After all some say God doesnít still speak to us today, what got into you, did you receive some kind of blunt trauma injury, a two by four upside the head or something?
After all, if I canít lift your conscience out and study it under the electron microscope, compare it between two or three more how in the world am I going to know the difference? You might be a spy or a double agent or something.
What lead you to make such a statement Bill, donít you have a lot of book larnin?
------------------------------------
Yeah, I have a lot of book larnin. But, I'm also reminded of a text that says 'For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God'. 1 Cor. 1:18
All the formal education counts for nothing without that spirit thingy that you keep talking about. Isn't that what happened with Paul? Great education plus that new spirit?
Bill |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 126
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 3:47 pm: | |
Amen, amen, amen Bill,I know about that Hebrews crowd.They sing "When the Saint Go Marchin in."
We is two happy campers. |
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater
Post Number: 135
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 3:49 pm: | |
Susan says,
"You believe she (Ellen White)is inspired in the same way as the Bible is, we don't."
WOW Responds:
Susan, apparently you have not been reading my posts. I ask you to make "the truth" your goal before you pass critical judgment on someone.
Thank you in advance for your courtesy.
WalkOnWater |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 337
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 4:01 pm: | |
WOW,
I am assuming you believe EGW is inspired. That said, could you clarify how you see the inspiriation of EGW and the Bible differently? It is my understanding that you believe the Bible has contradictions and errors and the ideas are what is inspired. It was also my understanding that you view EGW as having contradictions and errors and the ideas are inspired. Is that correct? |
Susans
Registered user
Username: Susans
Post Number: 154
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 6:13 pm: | |
WOW,
I have been reading your posts. I quite likely have drawn conclusions from all your posts that you, as a current and loyal Seventh Day Adventist, agreed to believe and agree to all the doctrines of the SDA church when you rejoined 5 or so odd years ago as you have stated. If I am wrong, and have drawn a wrong conclusion about your position on Ellen White's inspiration, I sincerely apologize.
I do want "the truth" to be my goal, as I believe others here do, so I'm asking you to state clearly, plainly, and truthfully the answer to U2's question above regarding your belief of EGW's source and quality of inspiration and in addition, your belief or agreement to: a) the fundamental belief regarding EGW as "the Spirit of Prophecy", b) the status of her as a prophet for the church, and c) her writings as "continuing and authoritative source of truth". I will be audacious enough to assume I probably speak for most, if not every, person here, that I would like to hear a straight answer.
Thank you in advance for your courtesy in responding.
Susan |
Walkonwater
Registered user
Username: Walkonwater
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 6:49 pm: | |
Susan & U2,
I am working on a direct response to your questions pertaining to how I view Ellen White.
But I am also working on a response to Ramone's questions so I have to finish that first.
I will say this. My view is that most Adventists and most Former Adventists misunderstand the primary purpose and heart of Ellen White's writings. I think the cat fight has obscured what she was all about.
More later,
WalkOnWater |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 560
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 9:16 pm: | |
(Some suggested interview comments & questions you can pose to us for your book, WOW... no sarcasm intended, I'm serious:
Comment from a FA: I used to believe that, too, that in the fight between the hardline early-SDA crowd and the near-formers, that EGW's true purpose and what she was about was confused, obscured, and misrepresented.
Question for FA: So then, if you really knew that, then why did you leave & go to one side of the fight?
FA: Are you sure you really want to hear my answer to that?)
(Message edited by agapetos on November 16, 2006) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4962
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 10:37 pm: | |
River, I understand your description of intercessory prayer. I also believe you are right when you say that God calls people to this sort of intercession; He does it for reasons of His own and in His time.
I have had a couple of memorable experiences with this sort of intense call to prayóthey didn't last as long as yours which you described, but there was no possible way I could argue that it wasn't important. Each time I knew something happened in the spiritual realm. In one case, it was clear light-aginst-dark spiritual warfare, and for 45 minutes I had to pray for truth to be known while those involved were occupied in the situation. It was overwhelming to see God's intervention after several earlier similar situations which dead-ended.
The other incident was a couple weeks before my father died. He was weakening, and he couldn't really talk well because of small strokes that had severely compromised his speech. He was miserable in the assisted living facility where he was, but he was unable to express what he needed. Further, he was very deaf, so he couldn't really hear his care-givers wellóand further, they spoke with heavy accents.
I could tell he was beyond frustrated, but I was powerless to help him. One afternoon I stood in my kitchen and was overwhelmed with grief for my father. I had a sense of intensity and urgency concerning him, and I began to pray that God would care for him and comfort him and minister to him tangibly in a place inside where he didn't need words. For 20 minutes I prayed for him intensely, and at the end of that time, I sensed that "something" was resolved and that God would comfort and care for my father.
A surprising thing happenedóbut it seemed to me like a direct answer to prayer, as odd as it was. The next day my father suddenly became acutely ill, and a couple of days later he was hospitalized with sepsis. Two weeks later he diedóbut in the intervening days, I had some wonderful moments with himóand he was out of the place where he had suffered so much without being able to express himself.
I know that God took my father. Circumstances made it impossible for me to intervene in his care arrangementsóbut God knew he had suffered and was ready to rest from his labors. I don't, obviously, know exactly what happened that afternoon when I was called on to pray, but I know that something of eternal significance did happen, and I can only thank God for being sovereign and infinitely merciful.
Colleen |
Tricia
Registered user
Username: Tricia
Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 11:40 pm: | |
Colleen,
Thank you for your testimony of God's answering your earnest prayers. I've "heard" you say many times, "God is faithfaul!" and the situation with your father and your prayer totally proved it!
He has answered prayers for me just exactly when the time was right. I'am so thankful that he WANTS to know from us our needs, including our loved ones and friends needs, even though he even KNOWS them (needs) before we even ask! It's amazing to me how huge, powerful, magnificient, and all knowing and sovereign God is, and yet is in love with each and every one of us as a totally unique individual that he made as one of a kind.
I'm sorry if this got a little off subject. Anyway, thank you Colleen for your post that blessed me!
Tricia |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 127
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:35 am: | |
Colleen,
Thank you for your testimony, and yours also Tricia, there is much I do not understand about what I call ìDeep intercessory prayerî that is just a name I came up with for it, I have spent several days attempting to sort this thing I call ìspiritual warfareî out. All this has to do with the original intent of this post.
You said: Each time I knew something happened in the spiritual realm. In one case, it was clear light-against-dark spiritual warfare, and for 45 minutes I had to pray for truth to be known while those involved were occupied in the situation. It was overwhelming to see God's intervention after several earlier similar situations which dead-ended.
îAfter several earlier similar situations which dead-endedî now that is where I am at with this Adventist thing, if I attack their doctrine, I feel I will lose them, I feel they will just cut me off, they will feel as though I am attacking them personally, you folk on this forum are doing much and I canít stress that enough, on this forum, you are in a position to make a frontal attack on false doctrine. False doctrine of course is what this spiritual entity uses, deception on a high order. I just do not feel I am in such a position, I have been tempted to try it, but I know in my heart what will happen. If I am cut off that will solve the problem all right, any chance I had will go down the tubes. I am just trying to stay real here and not get off into idealism.
Sure I get a word in now and then but I feel like a miniature poodle yapping at the heels of a large herd of elephants.
The devil would have us believe that we donít have any power, but Christ has not given us a spirit of fear, but power and of love and a sound mind.
We do not go into ìDeep intercessory prayerî to wrench a favor from the hands of a stingy God, we go into ìDeep intercessory prayerî to wrench people from the hands of Satan who are taken captive at his will and we go in the power of the Holy Spirit and his might. Just as in the case of your Father who I feel was under satanic attack, he will attack the sick and weak, even insane and you better believe it. Going in the power of God you brought peace to the situation. I feel somehow that God has given us as Christians a power and responsibility that we, as a church at large has missed and failed to take advantage of and I am helpless to explain it.
I suppose it is the human condition to love to talk of power, gifts, love and so forth but never mention responsibility, we love to shy away from that word, responsibility to avoid sin, vulgarity, responsibility to our Christian friends, the deceived, the lost,
and the sick and so forth yet I feel that if we taken the many facets of our responsibility seriously we would not have a minute to spare for bickering, gossip and idleness. Sometimes I break out in humor but that is only to relieve stress from sheer overload. It seems the more personal responsibility I accept the more responsibility I get, but it is not without blessings. How about you?
So again, we are up against ìdeception on a high orderî and it must be taken seriously.
River
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4966
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 3:21 pm: | |
River, your post above expresses exactly what I believe to be true. When God gives us an assignment, He also equips us for it, and He blesses us as we trust Him and obey.
You're rightóresponsibility is THE word.
I also want to thank you for saying one sentence that totally opened up my understanding of what was going on with my father. You said, "Just as in the case of your Father who I feel was under satanic attack, he will attack the sick and weak, even insane and you better believe it."
I'm realizing I never actually considered my dad's suffering to be part of a satanic attack beforeóbut as I read your words, I know it was true. Somehow that whole event makes sense in a new wayóand I'm pretty sheepish that I never actually saw that before. Especially as I recall that the care givers were Adventists from a country where the native religion is full of spirit activityóand my dad was a born-again Christ-follower/former AdventistóI see ways in which his suffering had spiritual implications I never actually considered before. Thank you for saying that and opening up a new understanding for me.
God is good.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 131
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 6:47 am: | |
wolves
(Acts 20:29 KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Characteristics of wolves.
Hunts in the shadows. Wants to look ìNormalî
Will attack the strong but usually unsuccessful at pulling him down-so be strong in the word and in the lords power.
Will attack the weak, sick or young, they are easy prey.
(Acts 20:31 KJV) Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Will go for the soft underbelly-comes in with false doctrine, swelling words, and will not spare the flock or show mercy to weak, sick, or young.
I just day before yesterday heard of a young girl the Adventist had ìpulled downî, it caused a great uproar from her family, the Adventist requested prayer for her that she would not be hindered from coming to them, I prayed that her family would see, that she would see how she was being pulled down by these grievous wolves. Please pray for her. Turmoil has surely arrived at their door.
Her family probably does not realize what is really happening here. (See above)
(Mat 7:15 KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
They try to act like a sheep, look like a sheep, bleat like a sheep but they are not just ìone of the Flockî.
It is the responsibility of the strong to watch out for weak.
(Gal 6:2 KJV) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
See acts 20:31.
Paul warned and wept over them, warned and wept over them.
Serious business, this ìSpiritual warfareî
So how do we recognize when demonic activity is present, we canít get off into spirit-ism and start looking for a demon behind every bush and begin to go around batting devils.
There is usually turmoil involved; lack of peace, Jesus brings perfect peace for he is the prince of peace. When Jesus comes on the scene he brings rest and peace even in the midst of our human suffering. We sometimes try to alleviate the situation with our own abilities when what we need is to go to prayer and not come up until peace returns.
In Matt 16 22,23 we see that turmoil has taken hold of Peter but Jesus speaks to the spirit behind it all and again brings peace, in (John 14:27 KJV) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
In the sailing world we have attached to our mast a telltale so that we can see which way to tack, which way the wind blows.
Peace is our telltale, Jesus brings joy, peace and contentment in the Holy Ghost, knowing him is our greatest joy, peace and our Sabbath of rest a deep and eternal rest for we have rested from our labors, we learn to recognize this in ourselves and in others.
Thatís why I refer to my Adventist friends as ìmaking brick without even the benefit of strawî every Saturday he makes another brick and slops it with the mortar of uncertainty and looks upon the investigative judgments with a certain fear and unrest that continues to nibble night and day at the soft underbelly of his heart.
I look upon my closed Bible this morning and like Bill, I am content with my Manna, I have closed my Bible and declared ìit is goodî the Adventist searches through his feverishly to try to hold together that which cannot be held together for it consist of just hay and stubble, fit only for the consuming fire of the Holy Spirit.
River
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Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 311
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 10:14 am: | |
God I put that young girl in your hands, talk to her, reveal the truth to her, pull her to you and hold her in your strong arms. Make her family aware of the SDA organization and their falsehood. Your will be done. Amen
Interesting post River.
Jesus I love you! |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 177
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 6:59 pm: | |
Speaking of intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare...I had a tremendous blessing the other day. I was grocery shopping with my 34-year old son, which we haven't done together for many years. I was visiting him and his wife and my little grandsons, and little mamma asked little daddy and me to go get some baby medicine for sick baby. So we found ourselves at the grocery story in his city, which is about 45 minutes from my home.
It was truly a fluke thing, you know, that we were even shopping together. But even more incredulous is that we happened to bump into one of his friends from high school, a young woman whom I hadn't seen for many years. She was there with her 15-year old son, who looked amazing to me, for a teenager. He looked me straight in the eye and spoke intelligently with me, unlike so many young men his age, who avoid eye contact and disdain to speak with anyone but their peers.
And she, my son's friend from high school days, was glowing and sweet and happy! You have no idea how much my heart swelled with the blessedness of those moments as we talked. That same young woman, when I knew her as a teenager, was a very, very unhappy girl. In fact, she was so unhappy and so troubled that she confided in me, way back then, that she had contemplated suicide.
The Lord opened up a door of opportunity for me to share God's Word and His Love with her as we sat together in my car for about 45 minutes one winter day. I didn't sense she was absorbing any of it at the time, but I told her I would be praying for her.
And pray for her I did! The Lord would bring her to my mind from time to time and I would pray all the words my finite mind could think to pray and then I'd pray in the Spirit.
During that time, over 20 years ago, I never saw any fruit from my prayers. In fact, the stories I heard about her from my son and his other friends all sounded like she was not doing well at all.
Turn the clock forward 20 years, though, and God in His supreme kindness pulled back a small curtain into the realities of His behind-the-scenes, hidden workings. Here stood this young woman before me, now the mother of 5 children, looking aglow with contentment and happiness. And here stood her son, with light shining out of his young eyes and a clarity about him one rarely sees in teenagers.
After we chatted a few minutes, we went our separate ways and my son and I finished our quest to get the baby medicine. I must have had a stunned look on my face, because my son asked me what I was thinking. I told him how overwhelmed I was to see how this young woman's life had turned out. I said, "She must be a good mother. I can see it in her son. He looked me straight in the eyes and seems so happy." My son said, "Yes, she is a very good mother." He and my daughter-in-law still stay in contact with them on occassion and are aware of how their lives are going. My son remembered that this young woman had at one time been suicidal, and testified that she is now a happy person.
I told my son that I had prayed many times for her with fervent prayers and that I was very moved that God would allow me to see, these many years later, what He had done for her. I said, "Not that I claim my prayers made God do anything He didn't already want to do. But I'm so honored that He would involve me in the process.
That kind of intercession doesn't happen all the time, but when the Spirit calls us, he does enable us. All He wants is to know we're willing to be made willing.
Honestwitness
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Tricia
Registered user
Username: Tricia
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 7:47 pm: | |
Honestwitness,
Thanks so much for that testimony. It is so amazing how God listens and answers our prayers. It's something how He wanted for you to get a glimpse into this person's life now, and get to see how your prayers had been answered!
Also, your last two sentences really made me stop and think, especially the last one. Yes, the Holy Spirit will let us know what we need to say or do, or what to pray. Is that what you were saying in your last sentence? I really liked the way you said it---He just wants to know we're willing to be made willing. You put that so well. Thanks for blessing me with that!
Tricia |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4969
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 9:30 pm: | |
HonestWitness, what a wonderful story! Isn't it amazing how God let you see that young woman?!
Prayer in general has been a whole new experience since leaving Adventism. It's amazing how much it can be integrated into all of lifeóand how God convicts us of people for whom we must pray.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 132
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 7:13 am: | |
Well now, I am trying to figure this out, I seem to have to come to the conclusion ìintercessory prayerî links heavily to ìSpiritual warfareî.
I have questions. I will do my best to articulate them.
In the particular situations testified to here earlier.
What if Colleen, myself, honestwitness, others here who prayed and knew that the Lord had moved on behalf of the situation, what if we had neglected to pray? What then? Do you think that the peace that was so much needed in the case of Colleenís Father would have returned anyway or would he have went on suffering an unimaginable suffering?
Would my bil have come to church that night and repented?
Would honestwitness young mother be happy today?
It is just something in me that causeís me to look at the flip side; maybe itís just my years of dealing with technical stuff that causes me to do that, who knows?
Earlier I talked of responsibility, and I freely admitted my irresponsibility much to my own chagrin, but itís useless to beat a dead horse.
Jesus made a profound statement in mat 16:19 and in mat 18:18, now in (Mat 16:19 KJV) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Now we all know what the Catholics did with verse 18 and 19 and we see the results of that today, a disaster in my own feeble opinion.
Seems to me this is an astounding statement and yet he did make the statement on two different occasions, too say that both were just the same conversation is weak, itís too weak for me. If, in the case of the statement in mat 16:19 had been recorded only once I would have to lay it aside, there are some scriptures like that, such as baptism for the dead.
Does either of these text have anything to do with intercessory prayer?
The astonishing statement he made to Peter was that he was going to give him ìthe keys of the Kingdom of heavenî now if he meant this statement to just Peter and not all Christians I am in the wrong church and I need to jump over to the Catholic side of the isle it seems to me.
Do we have the ìkeys of the Kingdomî in our very hands? And if so, what are those keys? Do we have to wait until we are ìpromptedî by the holy spirit to enter into intercessory prayer? If we have been given the ìkeysî of the kingdom, then doesnít that denote a responsibility to know what they are and use them in our daily lives? You see, to my mind, responsibility is the flip side of the gifts God gives us.
Now I woke up this morning at a quarter too three with these text on my mind and I voiced it to my Adventist friend that I had woke up with some text on my mind and he ask what they were and I told him, he looked them up and said ìI will get back with you later and let you know what ìour denomination believes concerning thatî I felt like telling him I didnít give a hoot but I yanked on the bit. Can you see why I need to work at this thing?
I am up to my ears in alligators.
I need to know what that ìkeyî was the Lord was talking about or to say the least I need something that I can understand.
Is this ìbinding and loosingî intercessory prayer?î a key denotes responsibility, are we sitting around waiting for God to do something and he is waiting on us? He is not going to change his word just because we do not understand it, he has given us the Holy Spirit, he will not change his mind, in him is no shadow of turning, although I am convinced that we try many times to mold his word in our own image. It is our responsibility to get it right, he already has it right. We can moan until the cows come home about our lack of understanding and it wonít change a thing.
In Jeremiah 1:11 the Lord ask Jeremiah what he sees and in verse 12 he says ìI am ready to perform my wordî and I have to ask myself ìRiver, what do you see?î what should we be ìLoosingî if it is not the captive? What should we be ìBindingî if it is not the adversary? Do we suffer from lack of knowledge? There are two sides to ìBindingî and ìLooseingî, heaven and earth.
River
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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 133
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 7:17 am: | |
Now sometimes I think in our prayers we take a legalist attitude toward the word of God, example: ìLord you said it, I gotcha, now you have to perform it.î
But the flip side of that is the prayer of faith believing and rejoicing in the fact that he is performing his word therefore we can go rejoicing in the fact that the captives are loosed but then that takes real faith doesnít it?
In the former example there is no faith involved whatsoever. It is just a legalistic demand springing from a spirit of pride or frustration brought about by our own neglect at prayer and the diligent study of our Bible.
We dare not seek answers in a legalistic sense but seek them on the behalf of the captive, the blind, and the sick and in true concern for the condition of those around us. We have to use a big dose of common sense along with prayer as in the case of the young mother, it was years later that honestwitness saw results, her will was involved, but in the case of going up against an evil spirit the results would seem phenomenal. Has Jesus handed us the ìKeysî to pull down that deceiving spirit, bind him and render him helpless? In verse 8 of matt 16 I envision Jesus turning to them with a sad look and saying îOh, ye of little faith, have you forgotten so quickly?î do we tend to forget so quickly?
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Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 178
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 8:43 am: | |
River, I don't have time to comment on all your thoughts, but I will say this. I once learned from a pastor that the Greek meaning of the passage where Jesus says, "Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven...etc." is this.
"shall be loosed" = "shall be already having been loosed"
"shall be bound" = "shall be already having been bound"
In other words, what we do is a 'reflection' or a 'manifestation' of what is already being decided or done in heaven, rather than a 'catalyst' that makes it happen.
Does that help?
Honestwitness |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 135
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:35 pm: | |
Yes it does, I saw that in small prints in my NKJV.
Manifestation rather than Catalyst, makes sense however it would seem to put us, as humanity, on a hit and miss basis and jerk the keys Jesus spoke of right back out of Peters hand. Giving him the keys to the Kingdom I would think means that Peter is to do something.Now I know that God knows ahead of time what we will do.
I supposed I am a bit simple headed, its like the person going back in time and killing his self.
Thinking about it puts my simple mind into a tizzy.
River |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 323
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:34 pm: | |
River, there is a nice article on "the keys to the Kingdom" in proclamation called "Peter and the keys", Sep-Oct 2006 issue.
Its really interesting.
About the loosed and bound I believe to mean that we can with confidence say to a person who has repented her sins and received Christ as her savior that her sins has been loosed. And to a person that hasn't repented that he is bound in his sins.
In Christ |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 140
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 5:53 pm: | |
Mwh, That is a good point, thank you, I am unable to load some issues of proclamation. I tried and it failed to load.
River |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 179
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 8:03 pm: | |
River, I belive you need to download Adobe Acrobat version 7.0, in order to read the newer Proclamations.
Honestwitness |
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