| Author |
Message |
Valm
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 7:08 am: |     |
Dear Patti,
Recognizing fully that I will ever depend on Jesus as my robe of righteousness, help me answer these questions. If I were to embrace your belief that the Holy Spirit does not create newness in us and that our behaviors are not to be witnesses to Christ:
Should I pray to him to create a change in me necessary to overcome my eating addiction? If this addiciton is overcame, do I give credit to the Holy Spirit or do I see it as an accomplishment I did myself? (Recognizing of course this has nothing to do with salvation). Do I testify to others about the answer to prayer that I received?
Can I call upon the Lord to create in me the temperment to Mother a child with ADHD? And if he answers my prayers, should I witness to others the help I received, or would this be a false Gospel message?
When I am given a complement by the patients I serve on the exceptional care I have given, is it improper to tell them that it is only through the Grace of God that I do so? Is it OK to tell them that how could I treat one of God's children otherwise?
How do I make known the love of God to and eight year old boy who spent most of his life with his drug addicted Mother? Once he does make it into a semi stable living environment, he witnesses his Father die of a heart attack. This child has not had much experience in a loving stable or spritual environment.
How do I witness to the hungry, the poor, the homeless? Will my words be enough while their bellies are empty, their clothes wet, and their family fragmented? Will my words seem as something only the Middle Class can aford to indulge in?
How can I be a witness for Jesus when I volunteer in the public school system? Can I be planting the sees of the Gospel message by merely my actions with these children?
Is the acronymn WWJD? an appropriate thing to teach to our young people in giving them guidance in making the right choices? Is it an appropriate witness for our teenagers to wear the wristbands with WWJD? on them?
Please answer these questions. These are the tip of the iceberg on the day to day issues I encounter. I hope to be a witness in everything I do, oftentimes this means not being able to proclaim the Gospel verbally. I must have God with me and his Holy Spirit in me in everything that I do. I just couldn't do it otherwise. |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 7:32 am: | |
Patti:
I've been avoiding saying it! But it appears to me that you are confusing:
CHRISTIAN TESTIMONY
with
BEING SINLESS...
This is very common among the reformists that I converse with:
If we say "do not get drunk, it is not befitting to a Christian" they say, "Well, we're all still sinners anyway, and We cannot help but "continue" a sinful life, because we are, as everyone on here admits, and will remain sinful until the day we die or until Christ comes. (your words in blue)...
I will not get into the details of such an assertion because I only know what you are writing in this forum and do not want to stereotype you into the reformers that I minister to.
My wife is in Brazil. I am by myself at home. I have a lot of opportunities to go out and commit adultery. Why not just go and do it since We cannot help but "continue" a sinful life, because we are, as everyone on here admits, and will remain sinful until the day we die or until Christ comes.
It seems contradictory to say that we have to depend on the Holy Spirit as you said over and over again in the posts above, in one way or another, and then make the statement you made above quoted in blue. It is like saying: I will take advantage of Grace. Since I'm saved, so be it, I will live whatever kind of life I please! Paul says (about the Law)... DO NOT TAKE THE GRACE OF GOD IN VAIN...
I PRAY I am mistaken, but your hard core rejection that a Christian is "God's workmanship called to good works" and, many other forms evidence of SALVATION as laid out in the NT, make me feel that, alike my neighbors in Holland, Michigan, the most Calvinist city in the World, being a Mason (not a brick layer), is okay, even if you pledge allegiance to other "gods"; being deliberately a bar monger, purposefully a womanizer etc.., it is okay, because We cannot help but "continue" a sinful life, because we are, as everyone on here admits, and will remain sinful until the day we die or until Christ comes.
We have a practicing homosexual minister here that claims the same thing! Calvin colloege has a professor that now came out of the closet and started to teach the same thing! How easy it is to justify our own sinfulness by taking advantage of Grace, thus making Grace of no "saving" value. After all what one is saved of?
It is like the prodigal son who never ceased to being a son (picture of a SAVED PERSON): Father give me the part of the farm that belongs to me... I want to live it up... He ended up in the pigs swill until he return to HIS LOVING AND EXPECTANT FATHER...
If you are not agreeing to that, why just not say it. Why just not say: "I believe that Salvation is by Faith only, bsed upon the work of Jesus, our flesh will always be sinful, but the word Salvation means also "deliverance" from the works of the flesh...
In the first place, neither Cindy nor myself is "defending the continuance of the unconverted life after salvation."
Cindy never said that, but you did, and the more you defend that there is no "handiwork" of Christ that REFLECT in our actions, the more you seem denying a complete set of scriptures.
I'd suggest you to embrace the ministry of Jimm Bakker, and my pal Jimmy Swaggart and others because they believe in Jesus just as you do...
But I still believe their actions were unbecoming a "witness" to use a religious slang. ( I speak of the time they were still without repentance ).
You continue to imply or insinuate that I am being less than truthful when I assert my beliefs in the Reformed Soteriology. I lost hope! It you're saying that I refuse to follow reformed teaching without "examining everything and retaining that which is good" as Paul teaches, then you are correct!
Therefore, live your life the way you want to live. Preach and teach your constituents the way you see God leading you to. But please, do not convince me that those whom Paul says will not inherit the kingdom, will because some liberal scholar says they will... No wonder they have to defend that "there is no change in character..." The ones that I know, I do not have to judge them. The world already is judging them...
May God give us the eyesalve of the Holy Spirit to see our complete and perpetual sinfulness and our great and permanent need of the mercy of God for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ, our Substitute and Surety, the Author and Finisher of our faith, our Righteousness before the Father, and our only hope for eternity.
AMEN!
Pursuant to 2 Timothy 1:5, I pray that I wll never depart from:
teaching with charity
out of a pure heart
in good conscience
and faith unfeigned.
To me is very hard to address this issue in this manner with you because of my obligation to obey 1 Timothy 5:1-2, specially after you implied that you are older than me (is that possible?...)
I continue to love and be very affectionate of you and your points of view, but not to give the devil, our adversary room for his devices, and cause you to put in doubt my words about my beliefs. I now I will indeed drop this subject and go back to our points of agreement "over younder"...
Grace Ambassador |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 7:33 am: | |
My e mail is
graceambassador@ameritech.net
or
webmaster@embassyofgrace.net |
Patti
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 8:26 am: | |
Cindy never said that, but you did, and the more you defend that there is no "handiwork" of Christ that REFLECT in our actions, the more you seem denying a complete set of scriptures.
I never said that. Please post my words back to me that show that I said that. You are putting words in my mouth and imputing all kinds of things to me that I never said. All I have preached is that the Gospel is about the all-sufficiency of the historic, unrepeatable, once-for-all saving act of Jesus Christ. ALONE. Somehow people just do not want to hear that. It makes me very sad.
And it is sadly funny that all this should happen under the thread, "Preaching the Gospel always brings persecution."
Go with God,
Grace and peace always,
Patti
PS No, I am not older than you. |
Valm
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 8:28 am: | |
Patti,
I would appreciate a reply to my questions.
Valerie |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 9:37 am: | |
Dearest Patti AND CINDY, VALM AND BILL TWISSE:
Patti:
You asked for it (when did I say that...):
one time here...
We can have no PERSONAL assurance of election apart from God's handiwork in us.
Which is....? Our changed lives? Scriptural reference, please?
There is more in context with what you said. But I will stop here!
Thank you for publishing my last post to you in the other forum we participate.
There is a code of honor that I follow:
NEVER PUBLSIH THE POSTS OF ONE FORUM INTO ANOTHER BECAUSE PEOPLE IN THE OTHER FORUM DO NOT HAVE THE CONTEXT OF THE WHOLE CONVERSATION AND MAY MISJUDGE THE OTHER PARTY. THIS IS DONE PURELY BY THOSE WHO WANT TO DISCREDIT THE OTHER PARTY AND TO GAIN SUPREMACY IN THE OTHER FORUM
You may say...well, I did not mention your name...apart from making people privy of the whole context, leaving it nameless does not change the fact that it is tale bearing, bearing false witness and gossip!
I do not believe these are your intentions but
BY PUBLISHING MY POST OUT OF THE WHOLE CONTEXT YOU ARE IN FACT TALE BEARING AND BEING A GOSSIP
I am not being hostile to you FOR PREACHING THE PURE GOSPEL AS YOU TELL THE MEMBERS OF THE OTHER FORUM, THIS IS ALSO A MISREPRESENTATION OF THE FACTS. Please do not BEAR FALSE WITNESS. How often have I said "we're speaking the same thing" "let me be conciliatory" etc.. and you kept on nitpicking!
I did not read you saying to the members of the other forum that you are not willing to answer anyone's question in THIS FORUM!
Who wrote the following of me:
blue{I am bitterly disappointed in that I was thinking all this time that I was speaking to one who had the same beliefs that I did. Sadly, I now understand that you do not hold reformed beliefs (salvation by grace through faith alone).}
Who is questioning the sincerity of my words?
Who is CONFESSING THAT IS BITTER!
Who kept apopligizing even after you made such statement? THE MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM ARE INDEED WITNESSESS.
WHO SOUGHT AGREEMENT AND A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION OF THE ISSUES. READ MY POSTS ABOVE, YOU WILL FIND THE ANSWER!
WHO NEVER ANSWERS ANYONE'S QUESTIONS...
READ THE POSTS ABOVE YOU WILL FIND THE ANSWERS!
Did I go to the other forum to cry and whine?
Also, why are you being so sarcastic about my "agape love" in the other forum? I KNOW for a fact now that you REALLY COUNT ME AS DECEPTIVE!
I know you are not being you! You are probably going through some kind of stress of difficulty.
I will pray for you and me!
You can publish this post too in the other forum!
It is okay! I do not draw strength from being the supreme teacher over internet foruns. I am ONLY TRYING TO LEARN SOMETHING! I did LEARN SOMETHING WITH YOU! FOR THAT I THANK YOU DEARLY!
But, again.... you do not believe a word I say anyway!
The sainctity of our privacy here, and our ability to discuss issues maturely has been broken, so we better really STOP.
I am removing the FAF icon from my desktop so I do not feel tempted to read the recent posts while working in my computer, every time I see Patti's post and eagerly seek to learn from her!
Since I know I am the elder, then I can address this issue more objectively!
In Christ's Love, manifested by faith!
Grace Ambassador |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:33 am: | |
Grace Ambassador,
Please do not leave us. We love you here.
Max of the Cross |
Patti
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:40 am: | |
No, don't leave, GA.
I am the one out of harmony with this forum. I should be the one to leave.
May the Lord bless all of you daily with the utmost confidence that your salvation has been wrought with perfect completion in Jesus Christ
Grace and peace,
Patti |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 2:17 pm: | |
Patti and Max:
I think we all should stop and reevaluate our motives and actions, and in the process pray for wisdom and guidance!
Patti, How can you ever come back to this forum after you did what you did and are causing the members of your forum to say the things that they are saying about ALL the members of this forum ? Not being in harmony is one thing; causing people to have a WRONG IMPRESSION about any element of this forum, in such an one sided way, IS CAUSING STRIFE AND DIVISION!
I will never repeat them in here the things that are now being said in your forum about this forum, neither I will publish the context of our conversation, which you distorted, in your forum. The STRIFE STOPS HERE WITH UNCLE MILT, THE GRACE AMBASSADOR. THE DEVIL WILL HAVE NO WAY THROUGH ME. I will stop Him in the name of Jesus!
I could cut and paste ALL the posts above and publish in your forum so the participants of it could evaluate what is happening. Also, I could cut and paste my rebuttal above... BUT NO, AND NO!
This is the VENUE for me to bring this subject so it does not become tale bearing and gossip! AND THE STRIFE STOPS HERE AND NOW!
Think about it! In the name of the Lord, ponder, and reflect!
I truly and indeed learned with you. Believe me!
It is irreversible. For that, my Brotherly and unclely love for you will remain unchanged!
Grace Ambassador |
Cindy
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 7:41 pm: | |
Dearest Uncle Milt and Dearest Patti... I'm not sure what has transpired on the other "forums" you've mentioned. This one here is all I have had time or energy for! :-) :-)
I pray for peace for ALL of us to rest in unity... in that overflowing Grace from God's sacrifice at the Cross!
I remember once giving a "week of prayer" at our little elementary school. My topic was GRACE=JESUS (what else?!!) and when, at the beginning of the week, I asked the kids what "grace" meant to them, one 4th grade boy tentatively raised His hand and said, "Does it mean "gravy"?
Some of the other children laughed at him, but I thought, Yes, it IS like gravy! GOOD, RICH GRAVY..OVERLOWING DOWN OVER DELICIOUS MASHED POTATOES AND MEAT! (real or vege) :-))
God's Grace was revealed at the Cross in Jesus' Finished Work For Us!
It was poured out without measure, and it continues to overflow to us. It is Exceedingly Abundant!... Surpassing in relation to any other "greatness".
This Gift OF GOD is even called "indescribable!" (2 Corinthians 9)
Grace always,
Cindy |
Cindy
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 7:50 pm: | |
Hey Grace Ambassador!/Uncle Milt! :-)) In regards to that "brotherly" love you mentioned...
I especially love that term "unclely" love!! :-))
Grace always,
Cindy |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:52 pm: | |
Scripture on regeneration?
First of all, let me state that I absolutely and eternally believe in the Reformation view of atonement and justification. The objective and finished work of Christ (and all that it involves) is the ONLY basis of salvation; NOTHING IN US merits eternal life: not the work of the Holy Spirit, faith, character, or obedience. I hope that all understand my confession on this and accept it.
There is more to believing God's revealed Word, however, than accepting this truth. If the FACT of the complete and eternal merit of Christ's atonement in itself guarantees ASSURANCE of personal salvation, all of Adam's race will be saved. There is no other conclusion possible.
I have been asked for biblical references on the matter of God's work in us being the only guarantee of our PERSONAL assurance of election. Well, it seems like a moot point. The primary evidence of our personal election is that we have come to faith in the gospel. This is only possible by Holy Spirit regeneration. How many scriptures are there proving that faith/belief in the heart is absolutely essential to salvation? It is ridiculous for me to be required to generate a list of these (I don't mind generating lists, but please let me refrain from reciting what most believers know already). Other scriptures also indicate that New Covenant (not law-covenant) obedience is essential to salvation. John says that we know we have passed from death to life--because we love the brethren (study all of I John). Really, love of our brethren in the gospel is the complete fulfillment of all that God requires of us in terms of human relationships. This is the main evidence of the fact that we have believed and experienced a relationship with God in Jesus Christ.
The new birth is the ability to see and believe in the work of Jesus Christ, NOT regeneration of character or the keeping of the law. It is a perversion of the Gospel, a la Galatians, to say that it refers to anything inside of us.
This statement is self-contradictory. The 'ability to see and believe' IS inside of us. There is a lot of truth in this statement also: regeneration of 'character' (external niceness) and keeping of THE law (decalogue--Old Covenant) is not the new birth. But it is wrong to say that nothing that God has performed in us gives us hope. It is not meritorious, however, only those whom God has given faith can be assured of eternal life. He is clear on that.
There is much truth to the point that we should not equate our Christian witness with our performance. God can and does override our stupid blunders against him (these usually take the form of impure speech and sometimes action). We must still be strong in the gospel--even right after we have 'blown it,' for God in Christ is infinite in mercy. However, presumption is not in order. We are expected to state the hope that is within us and should exemplify it in our speech and actions!
GA: What you are saying about the tension between our 'sinnerhood' and 'sainthood' is right on. A Christian will always sin in certain ways but is always committed to the battle against sin. Our newness in Christ is primary and has the dominion; our oldness in Adam is still present and causes us to throw ourselves upon God's mercy in Christ. We often experience it in thought and action.
I can also identify with what you are saying about Calvin College and some of its teachers. My daughter was inclined to go there 4 years ago until she visited the place. When she was up there, they tried to indoctrinate her with liberal politics in the initial orientation. They pointed out that students are expected to accept homosexuality as a hopeless orientation for those who have it (i.e., those who have those feelings can never change to be heterosexual). They also stated that this was the 'official' position of the Christian Reformed Church. She was so horrified that she never again had any desire to set foot on campus!
Dr. Anthony Hoekema is probably nauseous (joke!--there is no puking in heaven) at what is going on there now.
--Twisse |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:53 am: | |
Hello to the readers,
I must now state something that goes completely against the belief of a statement I am pasting.
This statement:
>>that students are expected to accept homosexuality as a hopeless orientation for those who have it (i.e., those who have those feelings can never change to be heterosexual). They also stated that this was the 'official' position of the Christian Reformed Church.<<
Having lived a life of a lesbian for over 30 years, I feel that there is some experience in me, at least enough to share about being homosexual and being converted to heterosexual.
You all know my name. Truly I believed that I was born a lesbian. I fought for the rights of homosexuals in all arenas of life.
Also, I know beatings from policemen and others that I recieved from being a lesbian.
To add to that, I was rejected by my family and called terrible names by them as well.
Turned down in many jobs due to being a lesbian.
Was threatened with my very life on so many accounts that I cannot count them.
Was tossed out of all of societies social events.
Could not have insurance on my lovers insurance.
Could not be seen while I was in ICU dying, by my then lover, for she was not a family member.
And I could go on with the degregating things that happened to me, due to my being a lesbian.
Does anyone think I enjoyed all these things that happened? Do you think that I wanted to be a "queer?" I did not.
I would watch the 'little house on the prairie' episodes and would envy a life with a little house, white picket fence, a good husband and of course children.
Then would come my anger at God, for I thought I was born that way or that HE made me that way.
But, being a lesbian and so inately so, I believed that life would always be, me being ostricized from every public domain and right.
So I settled into that fact and lived my life.
However, through all those years, I would pray to God (I knew there was a God but didn't know Jesus Christ nor read the Bible ever).
I would cry to God and ask Him, "Why am I gay?"
There are so many poems to God about this and most of them full of anger because I thought He made me this way.
There was one poem called "Silent Screams" that I still look at from time to time, while thanking my God, Jesus Christ for delivering me from this.
This is a truth that even my gay friends are having a problem with to this very day. I am no longer a lesbian and haven't been for several years now (about 4 years).
I thank my Lord Jesus Christ for hearing my pleas and my prayers to make me straight and not only hearing them but in due time, He answered them!
Nobody knows how many of my friends died in my arms of AIDS from this lifestyle, and the grieving I had and still have for them.
Nobody knows how I still grieve a cousin of mine who at age 17, shot himself in the head because he was gay.
Nobody knows how to this very day, my body wreaks of pain most of the time, from the beatings I took for being a "QUEER."
And nobody will ever know how much I prayed for God to change me and make me normal like those I loved in my family unit.
God Almighty hears us, even when we don't know it. He, IN HIS TIME, also can deliver us.
My message. GOD CHANGES US. GOD IS MERCIFUL. GOD IS LOVE. GOD IS LISTENING. GOD IS MY DELIVERER.
I've learned a great deal because of this part of my life that is now set free. That God is not ordered around by us nor a vending machine in the sky.
I also learned that all those years, my belief in this God never stopped, I just didn't have a whole lot of knowledge of Jesus Christ as our Savior. Or the Holy Spirit.
God Works things out if we will only be patient and not expect some things overnight.
Kind of like the woman with the issue of blood for 12 years, she waited and had the faith that was given to her. She was healed.
And so was I...
I Praise HIM for ALL things because without Jesus Christ, there is no hope. GOD.
I used to have this little box that I called my God box. In it I would put requests or questions. I was not a proclaimed Christian, nor did I ever read the Bible or attend Church during these years.
But I prayed to the GOD that my father told me about when I was very young (under 10 years of age). That was the only thing I knew to do.
And you know what? God would answer those notes of requests or answer my questions always. Either through people or circumstances.
So I knew there was this God.
But more importantly, HE KNEW ME and He heard my crying at night and He read my heart.
He has renewed in me a right spirit and a clean heart!
Thank GOD for HIS Love is everlasting.
To all peoples that think there is no hope, to this I would say. Trust in Jesus Christ. No matter how long it takes in answering your prayer, if it's His will, always Trust and know that He has heard you.
Currently I have a few friends dying of AIDS. And a few more that are not with AIDS but wondering how they can be straight.
I tell them my story, they see my life, yet they don't believe it could happen to them. They feel they are condemned forever because of this feeling that it is impossible to be what they are not currently.
My life is a living testimony to the POWER of GOD for these people. At first they have a real hard time believing that I'm for real but they are seeing that this isn't something just in passing for me.
Today, one of my friends came by. He is dying of AIDS. He is not sexually active but believes he will go to hell. So tonight he is out there somewhere, dying with AIDS, hopeless that Jesus would care.
But in all this, he did confide in me, that he can see that I'm for real, not just in my talk, but in my walk. He's giving this alot of consideration.
Today at my kitchen table, he prayed to Jesus Christ on his own volition. I did not mention praying nor was that a subject.
It just happened naturally as can be from him and I wasn't even sitting at the table but I could hear him praying outloud as I was only a few feet from him.
Tonight, I pray for him and have been praying for him. God is working somehow in him, I just don't know how HE will work all this out.
I only know that Jesus Christ, our GOD, hears this mans tears and that Jesus Christ is LOVE.
So I'm trusting my Lord God with my friend.
He heard my silent tears and silent screams.
GOD DID THIS! I boast OF my LORD GOD!
Now is there anything wrong with that?
God Bless all,
Denise
P.S. Nobody in this world will ever convince me that God does not change our lives. HE LIVES! |
Patti
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 6:09 am: | |
Denise,
I could not help but comment on your emotion-provoking post.
I feel a great sympathy for those who are attracted to the same sex, although I have never experienced it nor do I really understand it. But it does seem that "Christianity" pulls their pious skirts tightly around them and give a wide berth of those who exhibit homosexual behavior. Those who do not inwardly cringe at their brothers and sisters who have this problem. This is nothing but self-righteousness and hypocrisy.
I have heard the passage in Corinthians quoted ad nauseum to "prove" that homosexuals cannot be saved. That very same passage excludes those who gossip about the homosexuals also:
1 Cor. 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
One never hears a sermon about how one must give up one's greed (selfishness) or stop gossiping about his/her neighbor before they "inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who shun the homosexuals fail to go on to the next few texts:
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Nothing vile shall inherit the kingdom. And we are all vile, but in Jesus Christ, and in Him alone, ALL believers have been washed, SANCTIFIED, and justified. In Christ, by trusting in His merits alone, we are regarded by God as NO LONGER SINFUL. "And this is what some of you WERE." Do we go on and give in to our vile natures? No, we struggle against them, but we are saved just as we are. The homosexual is saved while he is still homosexual; the thief, while he is still a thief; the gossip, while he is still carrying tales. Because we believe that Christ has cleansed us from all sin, we live by faith AS IF this were already so. If we claim that we must set aside our sin in order to be saved, then the gospel is impotent.
Very few of those who like to tout their superior righteousness (or "experience") go on to the next text in that same chapter. I will leave it to you to mull over for yourself.
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything.
Unfortunate that "Christians" see sexual sins as the most vile and unforgiveable. Jesus gives us quite the opposite picture:
Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."
The lowest of the low were entering the kingdom of heaven ahead of the most pious, biblically-learned people in their society. Throughout the Gospels Jesus came down relentlessly on the hypocrisy of those who thought their lives were right with God. He never condemned anyone for a sexual sin, but He scathingly rebuked the Pharisees for the sin of pride. Let us be very careful how we view ourselves in the light of the perfection of Christ. Will we pray the prayer of the Pharisee: "I thank Thee, God, that I am not as other men are..." or that of the publican, "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner"?
God bless you, Denise. He is leading you mightily.
Patti |
Valm
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 6:30 am: | |
Denise,
Thank you for that most beautiful story.
Being Gay is something I can not possibly understand. I do know that all people that have spoken to me of this orientation maintain that they were born this way. I do know that many state they have offered the same prayer that you have and have not gotten an answer.
I am happy for you that you feel this freedom and deliverence. I could not imagine anyone choosing to be something that brings such potential danger and persecution to their lives.
I have taken the stance that I can not take a strong position on something I know nothing about. (Meaning I know no more about whether their is a choice involved in being gay or not.)
I do believe that if the Christian community is going to reach out and give this very LARGE group of people the Gospel message, we are going to have to do more LOVING and less JUDGING.
The Bible says to Go into all nations...... Should we expand our definition of nations to communities of sexual orietation (as well as communities of homeless, prison communities, drug addicted people) Do we wait until they "clean" themselves up a bit through self help or community organizations, or Go while they are still in "sin"?
Jesus told the adulterous woman "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." Can we do the same with the Gay community?
I do not wish to engage in conversation on whether being Gay is by choice or by birth. I do not wish to get into the conversation that you can be gay and remain celebate.
I do wish to express my frustration at the overtone of remorse many Christians have on this community. I do wish the express my belief that as Christians we need to continue to be open to what this group of people is telling us and what recent research is discovering on brain differences as well as genetic differences. And FOREMOST we need to find ourselves tempering our position with the AGAPE love Christ has commissioned us to give.
Valerie |
Valm
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 6:38 am: | |
Patti, You still have not answered my questions. Valerie. |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:08 am: | |
Denise:
I could not resist my tears as I read your post.
You are a living proof that God deals with us in Grace in such a way that we change our life style and become a TESTIMONY!
Here are some nuggets of your post:
I thank my Lord Jesus Christ for hearing my pleas and my prayers to make me straight and not only hearing them but in due time, He answered them!
One has to be blind to deny the work of the Lord in your life VISIBLY!
One must be bent on deception to teach otherwise!
He has renewed in me a right spirit and a clean heart!
Again, your change is obvious...
My life is a living testimony to the POWER of GOD for these people. At first they have a real hard time believing that I'm for real but they are seeing that this isn't something just in passing for me.
The testimony was what you were COMPARED TO WHAT YOU ARE TODAY!
I had many experiences MINISTERING to homosexuals.
In both sides of the sexual spectrum: Lesbians and Gays.
There is a couple of common factors in those that God Saves, whom I call the ELECT:
1 - They recognize it as SIN, and contrary to nature. I believe your suffering and your persistent pursuit of God indicate that you did recognize as wrong. I just have to PRAISE GOD BECAUSE I SEE JESUS PROMISE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD GUIDE HIS ELECT TO HIM AND CONVINCE US OF OUR SINS IS BEING FULFILLED YET TODAY. It was the Holy Spirit, by Grace, leading you to God!
2 - They recognize their inability to change themselves. WHAT COULD PLACE A PERSON MORE IN A POSITION OF RECEIVING GRACE WHEN THEY RECOGNIZE THEIR INABILITY TO CHANGE THEMSELVES. This is also the HOLY SPIRIT convicting us and leading us to Jesus even before we even know!!!
I believe you also indicate such a position on your TESTIMONY above. (Thank you, by the way).
The Gospel is so wonderful and so great that we will never be able to fully grasp in its greatness!
The teacher that I mentioned above, and that is the same that Bill mentioned above, simply believed that THERE IS NO NEED FOR CHANGE from a homosexual position to one of a celibacy position, let alone to one of heterosexuality.
Their position is wrong NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR SEXUALLITY but because they DENY THE POWER OF GOD TO BRING ABOUT THE CHANGE THAT HE BROUGHT ABOUT IN YOU AND IN MANY THAT I HAVE SEEN!
Again, I was brought to tears and was humbled by your post. Do not feel that my statements in the forum are and were a word of condemnation to the homosexual per se. MY CONCERN IS WITH THE TEACHING THAT CHANGE IS NOT NECESSARY, IT CANNOT BE VISIBLE, AND THAT ONE CAN CONTINUE DELIBERATELY HIS SINFUL LIFE AND STILL CLAIM TO BE SAVED AND EVEN MINISTER!. The college that Bill and I mentioned teach these concepts.
YOU ARE A LIVING PROOF THAT THEY ARE WRONG! AND A TESTIMONY THAT THE BIBLE IS RIGHT!
Thank you for such a beautiful testimony!
Grace Ambassador |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:16 am: | |
Number 2 Completion of the above:
Points 1 and 2 above APPLY TO ALL SINNERS. NOT ONLY TO HOMOSEXUALS.
IN THIS SENSE, YOU, AS YOU RELATE YOUR LIFE TO US, EXPRESS THE BIBLICAL VIEW OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE ELECT IS SAVED!
Grace Ambassador |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 1:48 am: | |
Hello again,
Patti says>>
Those who shun the homosexuals fail to go on to the next few texts:<<
My response: Patti, I know that shunning oh so well. And this from the Churches and the people therein!
In fact, I stayed away from all Churches from the age 17 because I knew the judgement that would come my way and the guilt of it was too much to bare.
It's one thing to take one aside or to your home to talk to them about these sins. But to openly condemn them in front of many people is not the way. I know, this happened to me and I never went back.
And as you say, it seemed that sexual sins were the ones most frowned upon, ESPECIALLY HOMOS!
To teach someone takes love not hate. Hate only causes souls to cry and run the opposite direction.
We all want love. We are all human. Hate is too common and it's sad to see it all around us.
I would witness in the Church, people gossiping, slandering, filled with hate, and full of lies and think to myself.."so these are Christians huh."
Needless to say, I wanted no part of their ways. It went so far with the "Church" people that they would say actual statements such as "All queers should be lined up and shot."
The love that Jesus told us to have was not what I saw or experienced.
Valerie says>>
I do believe that if the Christian community is going to reach out and give this very LARGE group of people the Gospel message, we are going to have to do more LOVING and less JUDGING.<<
My reply: Valerie, I wholeheartedly agree. Having been cast out of the Churches sure didn't show me love nor did it enlighten me to the Gospel.
Back in 1990, I had male friends that were dying of AIDS at an alarming rate. Would the so called Christians help? NO!
I would go to check on my friends only to find them without a bed, blind from the disease, so they couldn't see, all bones and very sick, lying on the floor of their apartments dying alone.
This not only broke my heart but it angered me beyond anything I can type on this screen.
I began working as a volunteer for the AIDS foundation and writing letters to congressmen and senators and the rest of them, to obtain help for these friends of mine. Remember, that at that time, ALL my friends were gay.
So although I claim to not be politically active in any area, I sure was then. This caused a big problem between the already ongoing battle between the law and me.
Inciting riots is not my style, so you can toss that thought out of your mind. Moreover, it was simply standing up for the downcasts that cause such great tensions.
Could I go to a local Church then and ask them to help? NO. Would any Church feed these people? NO.
Jesus speaks of not doing such things as being hypocrits.
Grace Ambassador says>>
Points 1 and 2 above APPLY TO ALL SINNERS. NOT ONLY TO HOMOSEXUALS.
IN THIS SENSE, YOU, AS YOU RELATE YOUR LIFE TO US, EXPRESS THE BIBLICAL VIEW OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE ELECT IS SAVED!<<
My reply: Grace Ambassador, I agree this applies to ALL sinners and not just homosexuals.
In this light, we had better make sure that any Church is run by only the sinless. Which I do not know of anyone that fits that description. Do you?
I guess that's why the Lord said that He did not come to save the righteous but the sinners. We are all sinners.
The Church is the hospital for the sick not the healthy. That's my opinion.
I'm not promoting a homosexual lifestyle because it does go against God, but I cannot condemn someone for being a homosexual anymore than I can condemn anyone for being with any sin.
Who am I to judge? Only God is our judge.
However, when anything sinful is being exploited as good, we had better speak up. And this means against the gossipers, whoremongers (yes they exist in the Churches too), homosexuals and against the drunkards et al.
We have a responsibility to rebuke these things otherwise how are they to know that these are bad things? How are the children to know?
We must at least try to exhibit and teach some sense of morality, especially in the Churches.
And especially teach that we all are children of God and that there is no one person better or higher than another.
So understanding this concept, perhaps there could be more love shown and more tolerance, joy, peace and the other fruits of the Spirit.
Some people never read their Bible (I was one of them for many years), instead, they count on the pastor, deacon/ess etc. to tell them what is in the Bible.
Although, there are many pastors, ministers, reverends and such that pick and chose what Scriptures they like best.
Usually, the ones that hit home with them are not the ones they will teach on.
I do believe with all my heart that even though some people have never been told that certain things are wrong, that they know they are wrong deep down inside. But to read the Bible confirms those deep down inside feelings. The inner man/woman.
And that is what God said would happen. He said that He would put His laws in our hearts and minds. This He did.
But the GREAT NEWS for those who are so convicted, is also in the Bible. He is called Jesus Christ and He died for us so we could have eternal life. This gives us joy and a new life!
Not overnight always. For me, the thought occurred and I believed that from my baptism on, never again would sin be part of my life. Oh, how let down I was to find that still sin was in me!
And this Grace Ambassador is what you, I believe, also meant when you said:
>>. This is also the HOLY SPIRIT convicting us and leading us to Jesus even before we even know!!!<<
I believe with all my heart and soul that God was leading me for many years before I actually (in the past less than two years) knew what Calvary meant.
The reason for my saying this is because many things about my thoughts and desires were changing before I started to read the Bible.
The inner woman was changing.
With everything in me, I believe that it was the Holy Spirit that directed me to start reading my Bible less than two years ago.
I remember so well, how after reading it daily, all day too, for about 3 months, asking myself outloud..."what made me pick this book up?"
Then I started, by watching TBN (which I don't watch now due to my reading of the Bible and the truths therein), questioning what this Holy Spirit was that they kept talking about.
From there, I haven't stopped. I started going to Church. I was baptized but then due to traditions taught by men, stopped attendance.
Still, I read and research daily and I worship my Lord Jesus Christ and thank Him so much for this new life He has given to me!
Believe me, if you would've known me a few years back, you wouldn't believe the changes God has made in me.
Infact, to be honest, I lost all those old friends and even my family now that the Lord has made me what He wants me to be.
For awhile my family starting accepting me, considering that now I wasn't a lesbian. However, I turned to the Lord and am once again, the outcast.
But I am not complaining. I'm rejoicing because it seems that everytime I turn around there is a new thing about me or a new nature or thought on certain things.
God Changes us and to this, I have no doubt.
While I was attending the SDA Church, I tried to change me....<chuckle>, as you can imagine, I nearly commited suicide (seriously).
I realized, in me is no power to do anything but trust in my Lord Jesus. And pray for His guidance and strength.
Oh yes, I do show what kind of love we humans can show but that seems to be a natural event too.
Oh yes, I have tried giving up smoking to no avail so in that area also, I must trust in the Lord.
But not too many years back, I was a hopeless heroin addict, alcoholic, in jail every other day (no kidding) and institutions. Plus a queer to top all that off! Wow, what a mess I was!
Not only that, but my life was full of chaos always and now, I have some peace and I have food in my home and my cat and bird are blessings.
My friends consist mainly of the elderly sect as I live in an elderly complex due to my disabilities. And they are good people. Not thieves nor rapists, or drug addicts making and selling their drugs. Nor do I have to listen to the loud stereos.
God has given me His peace in abundance!
Do I ever have problems? Of course I do. This is life.
Do I still sin? Oh yes. Not intentionally but I do sin as I am full of sin.
Anyone who claims to be without sin, is a liar and the truth is not in him.
However, I no longer grieve them forever as I know that I have a Father in Heaven that Loves me. Jesus Christ forever lives to make intercession for us.
Do I confess to him when I do these human sins? Yes. 1 John 1:9.
But the one sin that God seems to have removed completely from me are the sexual sins and ways. And for this I am eternally grateful.
I'll not boast too much on that for fear that I would fall but I will boast on what God has done!
I can only be grateful and know that one great day, one beautiful glorious day, we shall see Him!
That is the day I would love to see come soon!
In the meantime, I will first apologize for this very lengthy post and this is not even covering what is in my mind.
Praise our Lord everybody. For He alone is worthy!
Jesus Christ lived, died for our sins and resurrected so that we might have eternal life with HIM and is now our mediator in the order of Melchezidec ever living to intercede in our behalf. Praise God...what a gift!
God Bless everyone with HIS PEACE,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus, our God.
P.S. I will not be so lenghty in my posts from here on..does anyone believe I can manage to do that? hehe :) |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 1:55 am: | |
By the way: I was Baptized in the Nazarene Church not the SDA Church. SDA would not baptize me due to many reasons. One was smoking.
Also, there is the Holy Spirit working in us but we by ourselves have no power.
God Bless all,
DtB |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 2:10 am: | |
Again, Hello Grace Ambassador,
This what you said:
>>MY CONCERN IS WITH THE TEACHING THAT CHANGE IS NOT NECESSARY, IT CANNOT BE VISIBLE, AND THAT ONE CAN CONTINUE DELIBERATELY HIS SINFUL LIFE AND STILL CLAIM TO BE SAVED AND EVEN MINISTER!. The college that Bill and I mentioned teach these concepts.
YOU ARE A LIVING PROOF THAT THEY ARE WRONG! AND A TESTIMONY THAT THE BIBLE IS RIGHT!<<
My response: I can say with confidence that change is visible and the persecutions from some are proof to that.
My old friends and family will tell anyone in the world that change is visible in me.
I may not be everything the Christian Churches expect of me but I do believe that God Almighty reached His Hand into my life and has changed it so considerably so, that it is offending others.
Especially other Christians..believe it or not.
Now, what else can I say? How about PRAISE THE LORD, JESUS CHRIST whom we serve and worship! :)
Blessings always,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus
P.S. Remember this saying? "The only universal constant is change." The Lord Produces in us changes that are HIS workmanship. We are forever growing in the Lord. Thank God! |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 4:37 am: | |
Dear Denise:
I want to express my thanks also for such a moving testimony. How could I have imagined yesterday (?--I guess it is 2 calendar days ago now) that an incidental reference to a college visit would result in so much inspirational writing!
God has truly sent his Spirit into your life and performed a miracle! May the Lord bless and keep you in his grace all of your life! I remember meeting you a month or two ago and engaging in our carefree talk together. It is wonderful that we can reveal all of our 'warts' that mere men count significant and know that God does mark any of them--if we believe the gospel.
The bigotry of some Christians against homosexuals is based on a wrong interpretation of Romans 1. Those whom God has 'given up' are not all who have these feelings. It is only those who have these feelings as a result of continuous and final rebellion against the Spirit of God. This special class of reprobates (referred to by Paul) always seek to go 'further out' in their rebellion--therefore God abandons them to homosexual passion as a judgment against them. The 'judgment' might be something else: drugs, alcohol, perverse ambition, murder, or whatever. The point is that many Christians fail to distinguish between acts of extreme sin and the underlying motive. For some, the fact of being plunged into deep sin is preparatory to God's mercy. For others, it is an indication of their obstinate and continuous slapping of Christ's face.
My wife has taken care of many aids patients in her nursing career. She has watched them suffer, has gone through the agony of trying to find a spot of 'skin on skeleton' with enough fatty tissue to inject pain medication; heard their pleas of mercy, attended their funerals. When she tells me of all this, I can only pray and abandon my own soul to God. No matter what horror in the world confronts us: we have to surrender all 'why' questions to him who is sovereign and loves us--as did Job.
As all contributors have seemed to indicate, the tragedy of affirming that homosexuals are unable to change by God's power is motivated not by love (as falsely professed)--but political correctness. It is rooted in a desire to fraternize with ungodly philosophers. God wants all of his good gifts to be showered on his people. Some 'formers' experiencing God's grace may be called to be single, however, most will ultimately be called to heterosexual experience--as most of redeemed humanity as a whole is called to one-flesh union with someone.
--Twisse |
Cindy
| | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 5:21 am: | |
Denise, Good morning! :-)) I've appreciated reading your posts...
I remember going to a therapy group for a few months that was for families of addicts and alcoholics.
The absolutely wonderful leader was a woman named Barbara (who sadly died of a heart attack only six months after I met her. She was only 52.)
I loved her and she was such a blessing to me when I needed so much help. I went to her funeral very distraught to think she wouldn't be around anymore to talk to!
But I then realized that, through Christ's love, she had given me a gift of PEACE... I still read through many of the papers she gave me and remember her... I am eager to see her again.
Barbara was a Christian although the facility where she worked was just a basic "Drug and Alcohol Treatment" place. I remember her having something like your God box you mentioned...
It was a large coffee can marked the "GOD CAN". She would have us write on slips of paper things we just couldn't handle, couldn't cope with...and then put them in the GOD CAN.
WE couldn't fix things or know what to do next, but we know that GOD CAN! It was a simple illustration, but one that was very helpful to me at the time when I was absolutely at my wits end!
Many other suggestions along the line of 'tough love', too, were given. But that PEACE she gave out, even by her presence, was a marvelous gift.
I remember when I could barely think straight, fearful of what would happen NEXT, she would say, "But Cindy, even if it all does get worse, GOD IS WITH YOU! And you CAN start over and have another 'life'..." :-))
I am much more of a grateful person today because of her influence.
God is GOOD! He knows what we need and provides blessings unexpectedly, in ways we could never have imagined...
Grace always,
Cindy |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:34 am: | |
Has anybody ever thought about this? Is the Gospel of Paul the same as the Gospel that the 12 Apostles preached? Or as we been taught THE GREAT COMMISION! And Can anybody find in the bible that the apostles preached the Gopsel to any Gentiles? I have been studying this subject for the last 4 months and wanted some input on this. |
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 12:40 pm: | |
Both the Bible and Church History clearly teach that the apostles taught Gentiles. Starting with Peter who taught and baptized the Gentile Centurian and his entire family. We know through history that most of the Apostles died as missionaries to gentile lands. John died a very old man, as Bishop of the church at Ephesus, which was one of the original gentile churches, and a center of greek culture and education.
I believe Paul was very clear that there is "One Lord, One faith, One Baptism." and the reason is that the Gospel comes from ONE SOURCH, whether to the jew or to the gentile. Paul also stated that he went to Jeruselem and presented "His Gospel" to the elders of the Mother church, to make sure he was not in error. He stated that He had received the Gospel from Jesus, himself as had all of the other apostles.
Like you must be, I am fascinated by the first century era of Christian history. I have read literally thousands of pages of Church History, but the most important and interesting to me are the first and second centuries. There is so much to be learned and I am finding that, the more I read and study, there is much so Adventist training to UN learn.
I hope your search is as interesting and rewarding as mine has been!
In His Grace.
<><
Thomas |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 1:02 pm: | |
Dear Thomas, please recommend some really good and unclomplicated history books on the first few centuries of the Christisan church. I am trying to do a study on that era, too. Thanks |
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 4:41 pm: | |
Susan
The ones Ive read are very in depth, but can be very "scholarly" to read. I have also found a lot of information and writings from internet searches.
If you want to get "serious" about reading, you may want to get Schaff's History of the Christian Church. It is an 8 volume set. His work was a fifty year project which was completed by his son, following his death. Very well documented but takes some real dedication to read. I have seen attempts to discredit him but in the last couple of years it is amazing how often I see him credited as a landmark in the field of Church History. Prepare to spend a LOT of time, if you go that way!
Church history has become such a fascination of mine. The more I learn the more a lot of things "tie in" and begin to make sense. Good hunting in your search. I certainly am not sorry that I began the trip!
In His Grip!
<><
Thomas |
Clay (Clay)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 1:18 pm: | |
Denise, thank you so much for sharing your story. I was moved to tears.
What a wonderful God we serve.
You need to write a book Denise. People need to hear what God has done in your life.
I'm praying for you. You are a testimony to the power of God. |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 3:08 am: | |
Dear Clay,
Would you believe that this post of yours absolutely surprised me? Isn't it wonderful to see how God Works! That post was almost 2 years ago and never did I expect anyone to be blessed by it two years (almost) down the road. We have a Mighty God as I was most blessed with your post to me. Thank you! This happened to be a night where some uplifting words were needed and look how God used you! Isn't that fantastic?!
Indeed we do serve and worship and wonderful God!
Praise Him with me for one great day, you and I will meet Him, in Glory! Hallelu-YAH!
Everyday, He Blesses us with His Love. And He has promised to NEVER LEAVE US NOR FORSAKE US. What a beautiful promise to always keep in your heart!
NOMATTER what is going on in our lives we KNOW that God IS with us through thick and thin.
With His Own Right Arm, He HAS saved us and made us co-heirs with Christ Jesus to the Praise and the Glory of God the Father.
He is Jesus the Christ, our Savior, our Deliverer, our Comforter, Wonderful, Counselor, our Everlasting Father, His name is Yeshua, Prince of Peace, our Provider, He extends His Mercy to us, our Hope, our Refuge, our Front and Rear Guard, our Defense, His name is Jealous, our Ever Present Help in time of need, He is the Lily of the Valley and the very Rose of Sharon, the Great I AM, the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, He is God, His name is Faithful, our Husband, and He is our All in All, our very Creator! Lord of Lords and King of Kings!
"The Lord is my Rock, and my Fortress, and my Deliverer; my God, my Strength, in whom I will trust; my Buckler, and the Horn of my Salvation, and my High Tower." Psalm 18:2
"But thou, O Lord, art a Shield for me; my Glory, and the Lifter up of mine head." Psalm 3:3
"But now, O Lord, Thou art our Father; we are the clay, and Thou our Potter; and we all are the work of thine Hand." Isaiah 64:8
"Behold, God is my Salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord JeHoVaH is my Strength and my Song; He also is become my Salvation." Isaiah 12:2
"Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but Thou has in Love to my soul Delivered it from the pit of corruption: for Thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back." Isaiah 38:17
"The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have Loved thee with an everlasting Love: Therefore with Lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have Mercy upon her that had not obtained Mercy, and I will say to them which were not my people, thou art my people; and they shall say, thou art my God." Hosea 2:23
"For they Maker is thine Husband; the Lord of Hosts is His Name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; the God of the whole earth shall He be called." Isaiah 54:5
"So shall My Word be that goeth forth our of My mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11
"BEHOLD, I AM THE LORD, THE GOD OF ALL FLESH: IS THERE ANYTHING TOO HARD FOR ME?" Jeremiah 32:27
Blessings to you Clay in Jesus' Name. amen.
your sister in Christ Jesus,
denise
P.S. Thank you for your prayers! 
and about the book....ummm, hum, I'm thinking about it. Course, I've been thinking about it for a few years now..<chuckle>. God has done so much in my life that I wouldn't know where to begin and He is still Blessing me every single day of the week. We have a Magnificently Awesome God! |
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