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Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1430
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 10:46 am: |     |
Freeatlast, I really believe you are doing the right thing. It's better to avoid contact that to be embroiled in bitter exchanges.
Bob--thanks for sharing your story above. How moving that your brother-in-law prayed for your release for 40 years! Your story shows, from the opposite viewpoint, how Adventism feels about those who are not Adventist. Many of us see our SDA family shunning and distancing; you see how you yourself distanced because of your "distinctive beliefs".
As I was reading your story, I thought about how Jesus was able to bridge just about any cultural or religious gap with His love and truthfulness. Only those who didn't want to hear the truth kept Him at arms' length.
I realize how much I used to do that to non-SDAs. I still regret the secret feelings I had about a friend in academy whose mom was SDA but whose dad wasn't. Even though we were friends and talked often, I felt I was in a different "category" than she was. I was fully Adventist. My sister confessed to me a few years ago that she used to feel the same way about my friend's sister.
Praise God for His forgiveness and for never letting up in revealing the truth about ourselves to us.
Colleen |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1528
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 6:40 pm: | |
Freeatlast, Are our mothers sisters? Yes, I am in my 50's and once again I was recently told the two greatest commandments are, 1: Remember to keep holy the 7th day and, 2: Honor your father and mother. It was again pointed out to me that those are the only two commandments that contain the promise of eternal life if obeyed. Yet, I am a very loyal and faithful and long-suffering daughter. Well, enuf on that but, I wanted to let you know you are not alone in this ordeal even though you are well into middle-age yourself. At least in my situtation it seems like by me not being SDA my mom takes it personal, like it is disrespecting her somehow and not what it really is-that I am just plain not SDA, no more and no less. And, Colleen, what you said about being more SDA than your friend who had only one parennt who was SDA-my best friend when I was little (5th grade) attended the same SDA school I did. None of her family was SDA. Her dad smoked cigeretes and drank beer. She lived just a few blocks from me and we were best friends and you know how tight 11 year old girls are! So, even after school we just wanted to be together all day. Our teacher had the nerve to call my parents on the telephone and tell them that they shouldn't let me go to her house because the family was not a good influence on me. My dad told her she was not allowed to dictate what I was allowed to do and who I could be with outside of school and if she didn't like it then he'd come and take me out of the SDA school and send me back to public school. She did not butt in our private life anymore after that. Fortunatelly, after 5th grade I got to go back to public school and stayed in public school until the one year I attended MBA. |
Greg
Registered user
Username: Greg
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 12:43 pm: | |
I'm coming late to this conversation. I read Esther's post on the archive page above with interest. I also recently received a copy of Bob Pickle's refutation of the "Spirit Behind the Church" video. I have seen this video but I wasn't exactly moved to leave Adventism because of it. Anyway, Pickle's book is interesting because it takes a hair-splitting apologetic approach to defending Adventism and Ellen White. It appears that Bob Pickle watched the video from beginning to end and wherever he found something he felt was in error, he made a note of it. The book is filled with his reponses to 239 points of error he found in the video. As Esther pointed out, one of the earliest points of contention was that Ellen White was not "the" founder of Adventism, but one of "three" founders of Adventism. OK, I accept that, but it doesn't change her importance. One of the next points of contention is that "William Miller was a powerful preacher" who had converted the Harmon family to his movement. To this, the response is that Miller was only one of several preachers within the Millerite movement. His point seems to be that if the movement was predicated on one man (Miller), it would be easier to criticize the Harmons for having joined a radical movement. Yikes. Later, Pickle calls into question the testimonies of the former Adventists in the video. This passage concerning the former teachers from PUC, Don and Vesta Muth, speaks for itself:
---Begin quote---
The Muths? If Don had been chairman of the theology department instead of teaching art while taking classes, some would call him a former high-ranking leader. And without a doubt, Vesta would be acclaimed by all to be a high-ranking leader if she had been the college president instead of an elementary school teacher (elementary school teacher italicized in the original).
---End Quote---
These are just three of the many logically-strained, hair-splitting responses that fill the book.
Incidentally, similar ad hominem attacks run through F.D. Nichol's "Ellen G. White and Her Critics", a book published in the 50s to defend EGW.
Where are the prominent Adventist theologians/apologists who are can articulate the Adventist response to the numerous "anti-Adventist" books, videos and websites? Why is the job left to lay evangelists with marginal writing and apologetic ability?
Greg |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 92
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:13 pm: | |
Greg, I think the reason more "prominent" Adventist theologians don't address the "anti-Adventist" books, etc. is because privately many of them know we are correct in our understanding. I am convinced that many of them stay silent (and hypocritical) because they don't want to lose the paychecks they earn from the denomination. Their theology is dictated by their personal economics! |
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:35 pm: | |
Greg,
An arrogance and pride run throughout the denomination. It's about the "who's who". Didn't James warn the christians aobut showing preference to people? Huh! Will they ever learn?
Education and high position are the adventists gods.
"Where are the prominent Adventist theologians/apologists who can articulate the Adventist response to the ...?
Ans. Hiding. Some are pseudo scholar (mentally backwards), while others are intellectually dishonest.
bmorgan
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Greg
Registered user
Username: Greg
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:57 pm: | |
Bob, I believe you have it right. I recently read through Jerry Gladson's book "From Adventism to Mainstream Christianity, a Theologian's Perspective". While reading his story, I developed an acute sense of the pain he experienced after finding the foundation of his belief system is crumbling. I'm a physician. The closest analogy from my life I can conjure is the feeling I would have if I found that all of my medical training was predicated on falsehoods--a sobering thought indeed.
When facing such a prospect, there are really only two choices: remain in your secure job while living a lie, or keep a clean conscience and leave, without any guarantee of future income.
Greg Taylor also went through this. It is inspiring that both Taylor and Gladson were able to take their burdens to Jesus and move out in faith.
Greg |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 6:20 pm: | |
I love and respect the discipline of theology and intellectual pursuits. I earned an MDiv degree in Systematic Theology at the SDA Seminary. I am a voracious reader. However, to balance that, I often remind myself that it was intellectuals and theologians who were consistently the strongest and most vicious opponents of our Lord Jesus Christ when he was on earth. Their confidence in their theology was not combined with humility and repentance, and so they crucified the Lord of Glory.
Likewise, many Greek intellectuals, enamoured with philosophy, thought the claims of Christianity foolish.
". . .the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. . .but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong." I Cor. 1:25-27.(NASB)
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1483
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 8:22 pm: | |
Greg, I will never forget Rudy Torres, then senior pastor at Glendale City Church and now at Garden Grove, tell us in his SS class one day around 1990 (or therabouts) that when he was at the seminary at Andrews (which I estimate to have been in the late 60's or early 70s) he and his classmates were taught the problems with Adventist theology--that it wasn't necessarily Biblical--but they could never tell their parishioners that or it would "destroy their faith".
So, what's a pastor to do? As you and Bob said, he either stays and collects his checks and plays the game, or he preserves a clean conscience and leaves. If he stays, the rationalizing knows no bounds. Almost any belief becomes tolerable, because everything is relative to your own internal biases. As time goes on and one's rationalizing continues, it becomes hard to dispute any belief except ones that insist on absolute Truth.
Great quote from 1 Corinthians, Bob.
Colleen
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 2:19 pm: | |
Wow,
So the church did not just find out when W. Rea wrote his book about EGW. The leaders have know all along about the SDA theology. I will only say how cruel not to let the members make up their minds for themselves when they are told the truth. I want to reach out and shake some of those leaders. I know I cannot do that, so I will turn it over to God.
Diana |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 2:23 pm: | |
What I did not add is that what the students were told not to say is like a dysfunctional family. The parents tell the children, do not tell anyone what goes on at home. The bigger the secret the more dysfunctional the family. I have learned that the more secrets that are kept, the sicker the people are. I do not want to be sick any more. Thank God, I am past that. God you are awesome.
Diana |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 6:37 pm: | |
Diana, if you have not done so, read the minutes of the 1919 Bible Conference. The leadership of the church were very much aware back then of the inconsistencies and problems of EGW's writings. But they chose to keep silent, and the recorded minutes were hidden away, and found in 1974.
Here is a link to the minutes, and to an explanation of their significance:
http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/1919.htm
Bob |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1104
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 7:56 pm: | |
Thanks for the link Bob. I read a little tonight. I will eventually get it all read. I am sad that this has been kept a secret so long and that the members of the SDA church are not being told what the leaders knew back then. I get the feeling that the people at that conference did not think the common SDA member would understand. Thank you God for the internet, so I could learn and finally know why I did not like to hear EGW quoted in church. You are awesome.
Diana |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 147
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 6:56 am: | |
Greg,
Thanks for your thoughts on the Bob Pickle rebuttal. The parties I received it from are going to be wanting my input on it, but I've had to lay it aside as it really disturbs me. "hair splitting" is indeed an apropriate term. It's like running a cancer cell through the ringer until the only thing that's left is the base components that are totally natural and not harmful.
On your observations regarding the lack of sincere adventist theologians responses to formers...a great example is Pastor O'Ffill's site. Adventists feel confident in their versions of the Bible and what means what. However, when Ellen is called into question, they refuse to use sound judgement in evaluating her as prophet. I think it stems from the fear of the "slippery slope" syndrome. Where even small questions, leave a person susceptable to being totally defenseless from the devils disceptions. Which, links around again to prove that EGW DOES mean more to them than they care to admit.
Praise God He is sovereign! He is all we need! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 759
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 10:33 am: | |
One time I was ridiculing EGW and B finally said, you'd better be careful about what you say ... and something related to blaspheming the Holy Spirit....but he'll tell you she's not that important in the church today and it doesn't matter if you believe in her or not. I call it double speak, depending up on the circumstances.
Diana, I guess what bothers me is not only the secrets, but that they crucify the messagers for their integrity to speak the truth. That tells me a lot about the integrity of the leaders... |
Greg
Registered user
Username: Greg
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 10:50 am: | |
Esther, in my discussion with the historic Adventists on the O'Ffill site, I've found that a statement of outright disbelief in her prophetic status is grounds for censoring the post. The apostle Paul's writings can be called into question as "hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16) and thus minimized, but anything that minimizes EGW's prophetic status is verboten. I've taken to asking the faithful there who they could point to as an articulate defender of EGW's prophetic nature. I think this is a fair question but not an easy one to answer. At least the historic Adventists admit EGW's importance to SDA theology, unlike most of my cultural Adventist friends who think her writings were the result of being hit on the head.
Greg |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1492
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 12:02 pm: | |
All so true, Greg.
Colleen |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 161
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 6:04 pm: | |
I'm no doctor, but I've known people with head injuries such as hers, and I've seen them have siezures that from the outside looked like a trance. So, yes, her so-called prophecies were the result of a blow to the head. Had her siezures expressed as anything other than rolled back eyes and stiffened body (weird postures, say, or twitching) we wouldn't be having these discussions today.
Opportunists, such as James White, and others, used her "pretty trances" and her religious fixation to create a whole way of life. But I'm preaching to the choir.
Belva |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 498
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 9:13 am: | |
Couldn't remember where I posted about Weigh Down Workshop but thought you guys might want to read this. It is long but really worth the read as you see how another group can be duped into believing in a prophet, a remnant church, etc. Note the terminology used, Babylon, Remnant, etc.
Here is the link:
http://www.midwestoutreach.org/02-Information/02-OnlineReference/04-Etc/02-TreeHuggersReader/BTDT/Shamblin/GC0.html |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 763
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:45 am: | |
Belva, my daughter has had 2 seisures in her life and the first time, I had no clue she was having a seisure (I wouldn't have known the 2nd time either, but I saw the first one). She just didn't move and didn't respond to anything. She didn't even have a head injury. Seisures just must take many forms. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1609
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 11:15 am: | |
Melissa, you can go to the eplisitipy webpage and read about the many forms that eplisipity can have. There is one kind now that is activated by the fast movement of video games. It's interesting. |
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