| Author |
Message |
Angie (Angie)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:22 pm: |     |
Doug,I think that is a two-fold answer.Yes I would LOVE to covince him of the real truth,if I could just give him ONE LITTLE doubt,maybe he would study some of it and see the light!Wishful thinking I know but I think I would feel better,or would I?I guess part of me is trying to justify why I left,the more I write,the more I see that yea,thats the biggest part!!BUT...he was always reading books by x's,so maybe deep down he really does ? some of his beliefs.Like i have read so many times on this site,it took some of you a long time to really admit the error being taught.I was also going to invite him to this forem,I mean,I won't be lieing when I tell him that his imput is welcomed.I really hope that this feeling of needing to 'defend' myself passes soon,I'm not as bad as when I first left though.So that being my motive,would you send him that ??? Angie |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:30 pm: | |
Angie, my husband is Dale Ratzlaff's second cousin. Dale and my husband's mother are first cousins.
Joel, that's a great post. And I agree with Doug and Pheeki that it just isn't our job to prove our point or try to convince SDAs so they will affirm us. And it's true that they would rather see a person become wordly than become a born-again Christian and leave the church for another.
It's interesting; when you think about the defensiveness we often feel when Adventists question us, we're often, I think, picking up their defensive feelings. I believe that when a person becomes a true Christian and leaves the Adventist denomination, Adventists often feel defensive when they encounter those "defectors". I suspect that what we have found in Jesus really is compelling, and it creates a feeling of defensiveness in them because they really can't argue against our conviction or our experience of security. I suspect that our experience, which often is quite visible, threatens them at least somewhat.
Colleen |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 3:42 pm: | |
Gatororeo,
I really like your angle with the scripture in your post that you used for the sabbatarian issues. I too have used the scripture verse about the law that was etched in stone in II Corinthians with my SDA sister but to date, she has never discussed it with me. The strange thing too with many people that I have tried to get into Bible discussions with concerning eternal security and eternal hell is the fact that most of the scriptures that we offer to those who doubt are taken from the Pauline epistles, if no other argument is available--they will resort to telling you that Paul was a religious fanatic and ask isn't it strange that HE is the only one preaching these kinds of things.
I've never seen a comparison done in that light before, and it a lot of food for thought. Thanks, I think I will copy that to have at my Sunday School class for a discussion.
God bless and keep enlightening us.
Janice |
Gene (Gene)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 5:58 pm: | |
Paul also wrote that where Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. Those who place themselves under the Law CAN'T understand what the rest of us have learned.
For that reason, I don't get too excited when the conversation with my Adventist family members turns to religious matters. Usually, they begin trying to one-up each other with minutae, and my defection is soon forgotten. I simply don't add fuel to the flame. If they're trully seeking truth, they'll find it.
Wasn't Jesus the one who said that? |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 6:25 pm: | |
Janice,
A little thought for tomorrow:
Click on this Matthew 26:28
Click on the letter ìCî in the blue boxes to the left of the verse. Then click on the Strongís number for the words ìNew,î ìTestament,î and ìremission.î
See where it leads you.
What I am saying is: Paul did not start this ìcrazyî idea about the New Covenant.
Paul did not start it and Paul did not ìfinishî it. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 6:39 pm: | |
Talk about minutae matters-have you ever gone to the official SDA website? You can check the Friday evening and Saturday evening sunsets for every time zone matched to the latitude and longatude of where you want to make sure you haven't transgressed the Sabbath by so much as a second for where it is you are looking up the sunsets. Frankly, I think that is a bit much. How come since some folks are so extreme about the bibical laws then why do the men shave? It says somewhere not to cut the corner of your beard. I remember my dad looking in the mirror while he'd be shaving wondering just where the corner of his beard was. He finilly just gave up and shaved. And, yes it is very common when diehard SDA's have a loved one who was once SDA and now is attending a church other than SDA to really have a distrust of that person. When my mom (just recently) confronted me about attending the Lutheran I was (and I'm not exagerating) yelled at how could I become a persucuter and torturer of Sabbath-keepers when the time of trouble comes. I kept saying, "Mom, I would never torture anyone. If there is one thing that I truly learned from being raised SDA it is that the freedom of religion is something wonderful. If someone wants to uphold the Sabbath I don't have a problem with that. And, too, being raised so strongly to embrase the concept of freedom of religion than why can't people who were raised SDA be given that freedom of religion, too"? But, I have found it doesn't work that way. In fact, around five years ago I ran into a lady in my community who identifies herself as an Historical Adventist. When I told her I attended the Seventh-day Baptist church she looked me right in the eye and said, "Being Seventh-day Baptist won't save you". I looked her right back in the eye and told her, 'you're right, it won't. Only the blood of Jesus will save me. But, I like worshipping with the Seventh-day Baptists. They are nice people and teach a truth that is honest and good". She came back at me telling me that I obiviouselly knew the truth of the Sabbath so I should "Go all the way to the truth and become SDA". And, this lady won't even go into the local SDA church because the minister is a Jesuit infilterator and she knows that at least 2/3 of the congreation are really Jesuit infilterators and/or are spys from the vatican. Frankly, I think that borders on mental problems but the SDA denomination does seem to bring out that aspect in a lot of folks. And, Colleen, you have written on here several times that I have read that you really believe the SDA church is powered by an evil force. I really would like to understand how come you have come to that way of believing. I think it is a totally misguided organization but to say a power of evil seems a bit harsh. Please, explain. |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 7:43 pm: | |
Susan,
This is not Colleen but since I have been of this inclination since my first encounter with SDA I would have to say I feel the same way. Let me show you some verses and then you decide for yourself.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord God had made.
May God give you wisdom, Carol
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of man, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to decieve;
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the people in SDA are devils,just like Jesus did not say Peter was a devil,but He did say in Matthew 16:23 Get thee behind me Satan.
Look carefully at the verses and see if there is any correlation.
May God give you wisdom, Carol |
Gene (Gene)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 8:21 pm: | |
I'm not a colleen, either, but I also feel that the SDA church (as well as the LDS church) are evil organizations. Spawned in falsehood and nurtured by their own deceit.
I read it just last night, but can't recall where - that 96% of Adventist evangelism is directed at Christians. To what end, I ask. It appears to be designed purposefully to create disharmony and confusion in the Body of Christ.
In a spiritual war, there is the Good Team and the Bad Team. Spiritual organizations spring from one team or another. Do these cults (no matter how popular they may seem) strengthen the Body, or attempt to weaken it? Do they direct their followers' attentions to the Christ, or do they overwhelm them with meaningless rituals and artificial stressors in order to redirect them from the Christ?
Are they doing the work of the Good Team or the Bad Team? Makes one wonder who indeed is the Antichrist. |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 9:27 pm: | |
I go to the 11:00 serice at the SDA nearly every week with my elderly mother. How come the SDA pastor ALWAYS starts his prayers, "Father God" and then continues with the prayer. I am so courious about that but I don't want to ask him, my mom or anyone else who regurally attends there. He does NOT begin his prayers with, "Our Father in heaven", or "Dear Lord Jesus" or any of the other ways I am used to hearing prayers began. He ALWAYS beging his prayers with these words, "Father God". Why? |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:00 pm: | |
I agree with Carol and Gene above. The church was founded in deception; it was born as a means of persisting in a belief that 1844 was significant even after the other Millerites repented of date-setting and returned to their churches. EGW had false visions saying God held his hand over the error in the dates (Miller had set two) so people would be spurred to "get ready".
Their unique founding doctrine, the investigative judgment, was a complete fabrication to save face and to gain control over a few earnest believers. The church was not founded on Jesus; it was founded on a lie about a date which should never have been set.
Deception (and it was deliberate; EGW gave God the credit for the visions confirming the Investigative Judgment) NEVER comes from God. Satan alone is the author of deception. Since the church was founded in deception, Satan has a claim on it.
2 Peter 2 discusses false teachers and prophets and their destruction. "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them.." (v. 1-2) "They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done...These men [and women] are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and...entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravityófor a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." (v. 13, 17-9)
Adventism has always been an organization of deception, and even today it is. They do not openly disclose their true beliefs; even their young members are not fully educated in them. Yet they are bound to it with ties which no logic or rationale can explain. They are bound to Adventism with a spiritual tie. That's why its SO HARD to leave, and that's why those who stay have such a hard time with those who find Christ. It's a case of darkness being brought to light, and even though Adventists' spiritual bondage may be unacknowledged, it is real, and it is threatened by the presence of the Holy Spirit in one who has left and found Christ. That's also why Adventists are not overly troubled by those who leave and become profligate sinners. Their spirit of Adventism is not threatened by open sin. It's only threatened by the presence of the Holy Spirit and the exposing light of God's word as is it written (as opposed to as it is interpreted by Ellen!)
Adventism is what Paul calls "another gospel" and "a different gospel", and he warns against and condemns it. In Galatians 3:1 Paul calls the people "bewitched" by the teaching that they need to keep the law.
In 2 Corinthians 11 Paul refers to the false apostles in Corinth, who were also Judaizers, as servants of Satan masquerading as apostles of Christ and servants of righteousness. (v. 13-14) "Their end will be what their actions deserve," he says. (v. 15)
Paul also makes it clear in Ephesians 6:12 that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spritiual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." That's why we have to put on the full armor of God!
Yes, Adventists say all the right words, but those words camouflage unbiblical teaching, another gospel. They're not just honestly skewed; they're bound by a spirit of deception to false teachings some of which even their own scholars admit cannot be proven from the Bible.
It's the spiritual claim of evil on Adventism that makes it so difficult to leave and so difficult to expose.
I do pray for God's protection on us all as we grow in him and desire to increasingly know truth. The wonderful promise we have is that Satan is already defeated by the cross, and we are safe in Jesus' hands even though we face assaults and even slander.
Praise God for revealing the truth!
Colleen |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:05 pm: | |
Susan, many Christians begin their prayers, "Father God". It's not particularly Adventist; in fact, I'd say it's probably NOT typical in Adventism. The phrase comes from the fact that when we are born again, we are adopted into God's family, and the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are his children. Calling God "Father" is uniquely the privilege of Christ-followers. It is a New Covenant reality, and it's a phrase that the OT Jews did not have.
I suspect, though, that it's becoming somewhat of a "buzz word". The real impact of its meaning, I think, is lost on many people who use it!
Colleen |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:21 pm: | |
I have a cousin who went from grades 1-12 in SDA schools. She led a wayword life for awhile and then found a wonderful Christian church that gasp! met on Sunday that she got to be involved with and really grew into a lovely Christian lady. More than once very close famly members who are still SDA have said that it would be better for this cousin to have stayed in the way of sinfullness than to become a Sunday-keeper. Sunday-keeper, bah! It's a Christian church that has it's main weekly service on Sunday. I keep telling my kin it's not the same thing in the way they refer to themselves as Sabbath-keepers. Theyjust don't get it. Anyway, I finilly asked the SDA kin why they thought like that and I was told that as long as she was living a sinful life there was yet hope that she could come back to the truth but once someone leaves the truth of the Sabbath to honor the pope by going to church on Sunday then that person has cosed themselves off to being part of the true last remenant and has turned their back to the truth. But in living a wayword life there is still the hope that the person may still come back to "the truth". It's so goofy! Then they really get purturbed at me when I tell them I sure did have to go to church a lot when I ent to Monterey Bay Academy and then I ask if the SDA church is so anti-having church on Sunday then why are so many SDA's glued to their T.V.'s on Sunday mornings watching Findley and tht guy from the Crystal Cathedral? Oh, they get irrked at me. I do think it is awfully sad that SA's as a general rule have given an entire day over to satan. In my Bible after the creation of the first day God checked it out and said, "It is good". The SDA's generally think of Sunday as The Devil's Day. God said his creation at the end of that first day was good. To me the entire warped, cultic mindset of the SDA's that I know and love is just really sad. |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 5:45 am: | |
Colleen,
I thought I was reading my own writings and thoughts while reading your 1st post. Like I said some time back when my son-in-law gave me tapes to listen to I was very much on edge and did not at that time really understand why. As soon as I would get into the word of God I would be at peace. I know and have for some time that it was the Holy Spirit putting up red flags and giving me a sense of something is wrong. Then as I became totally intrenched in my bible I realized just exactly what was happening.
I have seen it happen so many times also, that they use the right words but the heart is not in them. I would even be able to show how my son-in-law would pick up on things I was saying such as PRAISE GOD and thus use them himself. I had never heard him use these words before.
2 John 9-11 says Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
It's pretty strong and for this reason my daughter is in the middle of a divorce. Not because she thinks everything she does and says is right but because the Bible is.
Gotta go to work, Let us all learn the ways of God thru His Son Jesus Christ, Carol |
Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 6:31 am: | |
Colleen,
I dont think you could have put the SDA Church in a better light. A few months ago, when I was reading you and your husband's testimony, I remember I was a bit taken aback when I read your conclusion about SDA being a cult. Up until that time I had never thought about it in that light. However, when I really thought about it, there was nothing else it could be called than what it is.
I look back at the grip it had on my wife. She was only in for three years, but fully convinced that there was no other truth outside of it. In hindsight, it was ruining our relationship and our young marriage. I remember deading the day CJ would be old enough to understand things and what we would be teaching him. But I praise God for the way He worked on her at just the right time. There was discussion earlier about Galatians, and I chime in and say AMEN because that's what set her free.
Adventists are indeed a group that need praying for. I read messages on other general Christian message boards about SDA's being mainstream and I think, "If you only knew." I came dangerously close to being suckered in by it, and I praise God I know the real truth.
That just made me think about this one girl I met at an SDA campground I was invited to. She was a freshman here at UF at the time and a brand new Christian. I remember inviting her to our campus fellowship which meets on Tuesday nights and her telling me she didnt want to risk hearing anything different from the truth she had already learned. I didn't know then what I know now about SDA, but now that I think about it, it kind of scares me to think about where her faith is now, especially if she is still caught up in the Adventist fold. Hmmm....
Joel |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 7:54 am: | |
Joel, Sadly, the encounter you had with the girl at the SDA campground is typical. The #1 reason that most SDA's will not go to a non-SDA activity is because they fear that they will be "led into error." This is something that is engrained in SDA's from an early age. If they do go to a non-SDA function, it is with an air of arrogance. They come to criticize, and will not seriously listen to anything that is presented. That is why I told Angie to think about her reasons for sharing the verses you presented yesterday with her Pastor.
Since I have left Adventism, I cannot count the number of Adventists (including my mother) who have told me to "be careful" as I worship with "those people," so that I do not get deceived. There is a great deal of pride within the organization, and on the surface, it appears to be arrogance, but in reality it is insecurity. When you're just holding on by a thread, you don't want anything that might upset the applecart.
In His Grace
Doug |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 1:07 pm: | |
OK, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS? SINCE THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS THE LAW OF MOSES REPLACED BY LAW OF CHRIST...THIS IS WHAT MY MESSIANIC (FORMER SDA) FRIEND SENT ME. I DON'T QUITE KNOW HOW TO RESPOND.
Yahshua never changed the Torah, He followed it
as an example of how we are to walk, and He was the Torah in the flesh.
With that concept in place, then we might be able to see that what Yahshua
was doing when rebuking was to correct and bring the true understanding of
the Torah/Law that always existed before the perversions by the
Pharisees/Sads.
Yahshua existed before the foundations of the earth, and through Him all
things were made. By this we can come to the conclusion that from the time
of Moses, until the words of Yahshua were heard on the matters of the Law,
that there was much missed understanding. Until His coming, the letter of
the Law/Torah stood, but the deeper meaning was missed. I truly believe
the reason Yahshua walked the walk of Torah, was not because He was simply
a "Jew", but that he wanted everyone to see that in Torah/Yahshua you are
perfected. No man/woman can achieve salvation through works, but works
(works defined as doing the commanded Mitzvoth in Hebrew) is a natural
fruit of the fact that we ARE saved.
Many say the Torah is written on your heart. I agree, but Yeshua said that
he came to "Fulfill" the Law. I just canít read that statement on the
Mount in Matthew 5:16-20 in context and see how the law/torah was all of a
sudden done away with. Wasnt the fullfillment of the Torah and prophets
the prohesied coming of the Messiah? Wasnt that what Yahshua was
fullfilling? I wanted to point this out in one of the other letters but
figured I might do it here. Another thing, why, after the death of Yahshua
AND his resurrection were all of his followers following the Sabbath, and
sacrificing, attending the feasts and from what we can tell, changed
nothing except their UNDERSTANDING of the Law/Torah? Most would say
"because they were Jewish, and thatís what the Jews did then, maybe they
were doing it not to be ostracized in the community of unbelieving Jews".
I have heard this several times, but that doesnít hold water.
Yahshuaís
followers were already ostracized, because of their faith in the messiah.
Why would they then to elect to keep the Mitzvoth if they were "free from
the burdenî? It must have not been a burden and I see it as enforced by
how the Messiah walked.
Lets examine: Matt 5:16-20 in context
16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may (20) see
your good works, and (21) glorify your Father who is in heaven.
(Light, Wisdom was known as Torah in the Hebraic understanding. It was
what separated them from the world, made them different. In keeping the
commandments they were not "saved" but through their love for God they
were obedient)
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the (22) Law or the Prophets; I
did not come to abolish but to fulfill.If we look at this and replace the ìfulfillî with ìabolish, change etcî
then the first part of the sentence doesnít make sense at all. It also
doesnít make sense that then Yahshua then goes onto expound and confirm
that ìyou have heard it before, but I say to youî making the already
known, bringing the deeper meaning and doesnít say ìit is done away with
and now its isÖ.î.)
18 "For truly I say to you, (23) until heaven and earth pass away, not the
smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is
accomplished.
(Last I checked, the heavens and the earth are still here, and not all has
been completed. So not one thing will change. This is another testament
that nothing has been abolished and that it must have been a burdensome
thing. I could never imagine that God makes things like Torah to be a
burden. This makes sense that through correct understanding, we can see
how all of a sudden there is joy in Torah and our burden is made light
through Yahshua and his correct teaching of the meaning of Torah.)
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and
teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (24) in the kingdom
of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven.
(Pretty clear here. What were the commandments he was talking of? Like I
mentioned earlier, it seems to me that all the Mitzvoth they knew were
ìletter of the lawî and now with a deeper understanding they have to hold
themselves to a higher understanding than the Pharisees)
20 "For I say to you that unless your (25) righteousness surpasses that of
the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Although somber in the meaning, has a bit of sarcasm, saying look at
ìthemî, the ones who are perverting my law, they will not enter, and you
need to understand that its not through their understanding that you will
enter the kingdom, but through the correct understanding of Torah, the one
I have brought.)
I believe Torah is a rulebook of righteous living, the message of the
ìLawî is way twisted from its initial intent and thatís what Yahshua came
to correct. The Nazarenes were the initial followers of Messiah and were
considered a sect WITHIN Judaism. This tells us, its not the Judaism that
was at fault within its proper meaing, it was the perversion of the law.
Onething to note on the law and the reason I think people are so quick to
trash Torah, is because it DOES require you to walk a certain way.
Also,
if you have been taught that everytime you read the ìLawî in the NT it
means Torah law, that is totally false. There are several laws that Paul
talks about. He calls the sin in his members the ìLaw of sin and deathî,
then he has the Torah in his heart, then he also makes reference to the
ìLawî that the Pharisees that is burdensome. So we need to be careful of
understanding the context of ìLawî in the NT. One rule of thumb I use is,
like David, when there are good things said about the Law, we know itís
the Torah. Its what the Jews called ìLifeî. When Law is talked about
negatively, re-examine it and you will see he is speaking of something
burdensome. How can they be one in the same?
I just thought I would share.. This email got me to thinking.
Praise Yah for your ability to midrash about scripture and stay in a good
mood. Most time when we right things about what we have learned, people
get offended. This is never our intention. |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 1:10 pm: | |
Joel,
Praise God your wife say the light. My daughter's husband was duped into this thing 4 1/4 years ago because he was frieghtend by Y2K and they had a "truth" that gave him a false sense of security, something he could do on his own to be sure of salvation, if in fact something extreme would in fact happen.
This is what I think happened since we don't hear of actually why and how from him. He just says he listened to the tapes and he was convinced everything lined up with the Bible, nevermind the Bible is only the OT (from what I can understand from their miss mash of study).
My daughter started to go with him and said she thought it was no different than our Chruch (Mennonite). When our son-in-law decided that he could no longer work the evening shift on Friday since it was his Sabbath he changed his work schedule so that he could now work Sunday thru Thursday. Without consulting me if in fact that would be OK with me since I would then have to care for their 2 boys while my daughter worked on some Sundays he assumed it was OK.
When I confronted him with it he was angry and said "I"ll fix it". It was not that it mattered if I cared for them it was the question I wanted answered which was Is it right for you to ask me to do something you will not? To this day I do not have an answer to that question and likewise many, many others.
I told my daughter when she came home from work that evening what had happened and I said Be sure you know what you believe and I Love You and left. Later that evening she came with Bible in hand and said she had asked God to show her what to do and she opened her Bible to Galatians and when she said that I knew she would be OK.
Consequently over the next 3 3/4 years their marriage became unbearable for her, since she felt she was living with someone who was living a lie. They are now in the process of a divorce, of which she filed for.
I believe that the answer is still on the way and with all the prayers that are said for them it can be nothing else but God's will that will prevail. I do not believe it is God's will for a marriage to fail. Having said that I do also not believe it is God's will for a person to be subjected to false teaching. And I could go on for hours, but will stop at that.
Again I am so thankful for those of you who have seen the light and not been sucked into this thing and now enjoy the wonderful, marvelous freedom that came at a Great Price for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
I'll say it again there is nothing that we as parents would not do for the safety of our precious children and that safety goes for spiritual as well as physical. Likewise we have a Father God, Abba Father, Daddy who feels the same way.
As one parent to another In Christ, Carol |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 1:57 pm: | |
Carol, I want to thank you for remembering me in prayer and in your posts. It is very comforting to see you are thinking about me and Angie.
Here is a bit of shocking good news...
In hopes of keeping my daughter indoctrinated into SDAism, my sister-in-law (by the book EGW, ultra conservative) wants to give her Bible studies.
At first I agreed but then thought about it (because getting my daughter to study the Bible is a good thing, remember, she is the one who told me I don't want to hear anything out of the Bible I am a 7th Day Adventist! when I tried to read a Bible text to her. I had to snicker at that but, really it is sad!) ...but, I don't want Bible studies given with EGW mixed in.
If she wanted to give Bible studies "sola scripture" that would not bother me. But I know she will have a hidden agenda. So I told my husband it wasn't his sister's place to be the religious instructor of our children. It was ours.
He said, "Why don't you give her Bible studies?" My teeth almost fell out!! (Not that I have false ones, I don't). Can you believe he said that? I was getting funny looks for just opening a Bible around them a few weeks ago. That is a miracle.
So, we started having worship again and we are starting to read in Matthew.(we are going to read the whole NT). I can't tell you how many times in the past (we went through spurts of having worship) that I would read from EGW. I guess we were worshipping EGW! What was wrong with me?
So, prayers are working! He still doesn't agree with my new found beliefs, he stated to me today that he had his doubts about there being a New Covnant...but the Holy Spirit is starting/finishing his work in our family!!!!
I also found out my daughter has told her teachers that I am no longer SDA. My husband and I had a long talk with her...he told her I could get disfellowshipped (probably would if he wasn't so active in the music, he is all they have for piano at our church)if it was just me, they would probably kick me out. (though this particular church is pretty liberal...)
She said she didn't know that could happen and was pretty upset. It might be the best thing that ever happened b/c my husband wouldn't go with out me!
Hey, does anyone think the General Conference monitors this site? Paranoia ;0) |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
Letís examine Matthew 5:16-20 in full context.
The word they said as ìnot to abolish . . .î is really kataluo which has the meaning closer to ìdestroyî or ìdemolish.î
The word they said as ìfulfillî is really pleroo which has the meaning ìto completeî or ìbring into realizationî or ìto make more perfect as it should be.î
That means that Jesus said the law (Torah) was NOT PERFECT!! That means that He said the law was INCOMPLETE!! That means that He said the law was NOT REALIZED or NOT IN THE FORM IT NEEDED TO BE.
That means that He came, not to dissolve the law, blow up the law, sweep the law away completely, or remove the law from existence. Rather, He came to CHANGE the law into something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Which he acknowledged at the Last Supper, when He said, ìThis is my blood of the NEW COVENANT.î There cannot be a completely new Covenant without a completely new law.
The words Jesus used were kainos daqeke which means ìcompletely new in form and substance, covenant (as compared to the Ten Commandment covenant, which was the ONLY OTHER COVENANT under consideration in the New Testament)î |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 2:33 pm: | |
Wow, Pheeki, God is at work! He will continue to lead your husband and daughter, and don't be surprised if one day there is a crisis of sorts that makes all of you have to come to some decisions about church.
As far as the GC monitoring this siteóI have no clue. I do, however, suspect that they are well aware of it. Whether it gets anything so active as "montioring", I can't say, but I suspect it may get occasional looks. All speculation, of course, but I'm pretty sure that one way or another the church keeps itself informed of what its former members say about it. There are certainly places other than here where they can also get info!
Back to your Messianic Jewish correspondence, Pheeki. That entire documents sounds like Adventist reasoning. I have heard all those arguments from the SDAs. Again, they're not taking scripture as a whole, and they are reading the NT through an OT lens instead of the other way around.
The text in Matthew about the law being fulfilled instead of abolished is pure SDA argument. The truth is, the law being fulfilled means it is no longer our standard for living although it still exists. The law still exists because it is the shadow of Christ. We can look at it, and when we understand the claims Jesus made for himself, we can compare his life and claims to the shadows of the law and the prophets and find our proof that Jesus is indeed who he says he is. Until heaven and earth pass away, we will be able to observe and study the law and find the evidence that Jesus is the true fulfillment of the law. It's our proof.
Further, the law still leads unbelievers to Christ. Now, however, as Christ-followers, we are not UNDER the law but under Christ. One of the best metaphors for this concept came from Richard. He told a friend one day, "If you're from Brazil and you move to the United States and become a citizen there, the law of Brazil has no more authority over you. You are now under the law of the USA. The Brazillian law, however, still exists FOR PEOPLE IN BRAZIL. Americans, though, do not observe it."
We are now members of the kindgom of heaven and children of God. We are born again, and we are now under the authority of the Holy Spirit. We are no longer under the law of sin and death. Those who have not found Jesus, however, are still under the curse of the law. That will not go away until heaven and earth disappear and the new earth is reality.
Jesus' teaching that people are accursed if they teach one of the little ones not to keep the commandments is a statement that says, no one is excused from teaching people to sin. The perfection outlined in the law is indeed the perfection God requires, but we can't get it by honoring the law. That was the point of the law! (see Galatians) We cannot tell people that the principles of purity and integrity and worship outlined in the law are not important. They are essential. But when we are born again, those things become the work of the Holy Spirit in us. They are no longer standards of perfection outside of us that condemn us when we fail.
Am I making sense? Sometimes it hard to explain in words the concept of the new covenant and the new role (or non-role) of the law in the lives of Christ-followers.
Colleen |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Pheeki,
Thank God for the precious little things we are allowed even in the midst of all this confusion. I remember in the beginning when my daughter decided she could no longer go, the question came up as to what were they going to do with the boys and he consented to let them go where they wanted and at that time the oldest was 4 and he said he wanted to go to Nannies church which was really his church but that is they the way he made the distiction. So now for these 4 years they were in the only church they ever knew. I praise god for that time that they had to get a foundation early on their lives.
God is so powerful and mysterious and everpresent in our lives and when we come to that realization life is glorious. New found friends In Christ alone is awesome. How is it that we who do not know each other except for the fact we know who we believe in can have so much in common and have so much love and concern for one another? Even though I know why it still mystifies me.
Can anyone imagnine what God has in store for us when we shall see Him face to face? I'm sure that the best of things we could think of will only scratch the surface. I for one am looking forward with great anticipation for that wonderful day.
Still praying for you and your family and thanking God for his provision. Carol |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 8:59 am: | |
I just thought that I would post one of my devotionals in this thread about law seeing as how that was what the devotional was speaking about. Here is the devotional for you all to study with the scripture references at the bottom of the devotionals:
What the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
The law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered?--By him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren.
Ro 8:3 Heb 10:1,2 Ac 13:39 Heb 2:14-17
All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
There is none righteous, no, not one. . . . there is none that doeth good, no, not one.--[There is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.--How can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin [is] ever before me.--Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
The LORD . . . hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.-- Whom he justified, them he also glorified.--We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.--If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
Walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Ro 3:23,10,12 Ec 7:20 Job 25:4 Heb 4:1 Ps 51:3,5 2Sa 12:13 Ro 8:30 2Co 3:18 Col 1:23 1Th 2:12
Just passing along the blessings of the Lord.
Janice |
|
