| Author |
Message |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 3:28 am: |     |
Sorry about the double post, I've no clue how that happened, perhaps in my editing. Either way, consider it a "double blessing!" even if this is Wednesday. (you'd have to have been raised Jewish to understand this).
your sister, IN Christ Jesus,
denise |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 7:08 am: | |
Denise, I would have to agree with you about what we preceive as worship. Having said that I will tell you that I have been in a church forum all my life(the same church forum), but I have received some of my greatest blessings outside the chruch and to this day have more uplifting conversations(worship) with those I work with, play with, sit in hospital waiting rooms with, nurses taking care of sick relatives etc, etc.
I would say I probably continue in a church forum because that is what I'm used to and also this is the only way my husband would probably worship.
I can see myself having a home ministry of those who have been duped into false teaching. I in some ways am doing that as God has sent me some people who are experiencing SDA and JW situations in their family. I think that if in fact as we GIVE our knowledge of something, that could interfer with eternal life, then we are giving as we are instructed in NT.
I don't say these things to encourage or discourge,I only say them because as I believe it is not a salvation issue and thus we can agree to diagree as I have stated earlier I have a dear brother and sister-in-law who believe you should tithe, but in no way is it ever an issue with us because like I said it is not a doctrine of salvation since the only doctrine of salvation is Jesus death for remission of sin, His burial for change and His resurrection for our eternal life.
May God grant each of our personalities space to come together is His Spirit and thus glorify our Father.
Janice and Denise, having said these things I see no problem in your sharing what you believe because as I have found by sharing with each other we sometime come to an understanding that is better for all of us than the one we had. This will work both ways.
This is what is so glorious about being in Christ because as Gal.3:28 says There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male nor female; for we are all one in Christ.
I certainly feel that with all of you and would think of it in terms of my children, having 3 different personalities but still having the same blood whereby they can truthfully say they are of the lineage of Mom and Dad.
Keep the conversations going so that we can show others that in Christ we can agree to disagree and still have FAITH that God will show us the way and LOVE that we can listen with an open mind and therefore rest in the HOPE, that because of what He did we too will rise to resurrection. Acts 2: 26 I believe declares that. And as in Acts 2:41 it is because of the HOPE that was declared in Acts2:26 that there were 3,000 souls added.
What a day that must have been.
May Jesus Christ be praised, Carol |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 8:03 am: | |
I just sat through an entire sermon on tithing last Sabbath at the local SDA church. At the end he (the preacher) asked everyone to fill out an insert in the bulletin to pledge to pay tithe and if you already pay to please check the box and sign your name. I am sorry, that went all over me! I am tired of sitting in church and being harped on about money.
Yes, I know I don't have to go there but as I have already discussed on this forum I go to keep the peace in my family. Which by the way, there has not been much peace lately. But I won't go into it.
People (family members) keep giving me advice on keeping my beliefs to myself and OH! how I have tried. But my husband keeps bringing it back up. I am trying to keep a low profile but I think it is eating at my husband and there is an undercurrant of anger all the time.
But back to tithing. My mother (on a fixed income, barely makes it-widow) was still faithfully trying to tithe to the church out of fear. When my brother finally became an SDA minister after years of preaching on his own and starting a church from nothing, they finally accepted him and started paying him.
I told my mom about what the NT says about tithing (gave her bible studies on it) and she then admitted to me that she had secretly been sending her tithe to my brother to help him make ends meet and calling it support of a ministry in her mind.
She was so relieved to know that this was ok. My brother gave up a good income to be a preacher for them and wasn't making it. She had felt guilt all those months for not giving it to the SDA church. (I (and she)have read what EGW says about tithing only to the church.)
She said she felt very guilty and feels like God has liberated her! Praise God! Not to mention she read in the NT that we are not to forget the widows and the orphans. She is a widow and has never been offered any help at all! In all fairness she hasn't asked them for anything either but still... |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 12:24 pm: | |
Pheeki, I just want to say that you and your husband are in my prayers. I'm praying that God will hold you together and help you love your husband for him, and also that your husband will desire to know the truth and respond to your respect for him even if he's angry about your leaving Adventism. He's undoubtedly having questions and doubts himself and doesn't want to face them right now.
Praise God for being sovereign!
Colleen |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
Pheeki, I think of you every Saturday while I'm siting in the local SDA church with my elderly mother. Mostly, I feel like you and me are commrad in this. It is truely taxing my patience to sit through what I hear for around an hour every Sat. a.m. in that church. But, I love my mother very much and it means a lot to her that I be there with her and honestly it isn't much to ask of a daughter. I truely believe it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that such a large percentage of the congreation in SDA's churches sleep through those corney sermons presented from the podium. That was the devotees miss a lot of the indroctrination. Where you go how many times on an average Saturday are you told, "Happy Sabbath"? Is the congreation generally quite irreverant during the service? Do a lot of folks bring that Clear Word Bible to the church? If you pay attention, does the sermons make sense? Just wondering. Do you stay for potlck? My mom and me stay every week, most of the senior citizens that go there really look forward to that time because it is their main social time of the entire week. I do enjoy that part o being at the SDA church on Saturdays. I would like for someone to tell me why the SDA minister ONLY will start his prayers as such, "Father God" and then continue on with the prayer. I do not understand the signficance of only bginning a prayer as,"Father God". |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 3:42 pm: | |
Susan, I was just curious, are you thinking in terms of becoming a part of the Catholic faith? Before I get off on the many false doctrines found in that group, I want you to know that I wouldn't want to sound accusing to you. It is just that God's warns us to try the spirits to see if they indeed come from God and also lets us know that even Satan can look like the good guy.
I couldn't help but notice that you kept talking about all the GOOD-THINGS (works) that were going on in the masses, before I get into a big discussion, let me know if you want my input, I will certainly be glad to let you know of the many false doctrines within this religion as well as many others than I have spent years studying up on. The best way to win anyone is to play their own game, isn't that what it even says in all these silly little "how to win your man" books that we have all been guilty of reading at least once in our lives, men too by the way!!! Have you never been shown any of the Alberto Christian comic books? Alberto is an ex-Catholic that reveals to you the 'behind the scenes' goings on within the movement between the nuns and priests, some of the things that the priests do with the boys while claiming to live chaste lives among many other topics well worth reading before jumping on their band wagon.
One last statement in closing, and you can get back with me on this subject if you want some facts.
The statement is this: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it must really be a duck.
The fact: Believe Satan can put on the best duck suit ever but God warns us to be aware of that very fact.
One last thought: All that glitters is NOT gold!!!
In your search in finding spiritual truth and enlightenment, God says not to be entangled again with a yoke of bondage, so, don't get caught up in anything that FEELS good or even LOOKS good for that matter, it has to pass God's test or it isn't worth persuing, is it? He even told us that evil people were good to their own kind, right?
Pure religion is defined in God's word as this: to take care of the widows and the fatherless, but remember there is more to living a full Christian life than 'doing' good things, what is the motive behind the act, if it isn't love, look out.
Don't get mad at me though because as you all agree, we have Christians is every denomination known to man, it is sad though that these Christians never grow enough through studying to see the full picture and live in God's blessings.
Hope you all get something out of what I have to said, I want to be a positive part of this forum, and God is still working on me too.
Love to all, your sister in Christ. Janice |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 7:20 pm: | |
Dear Janice, No, I am not in any way, shape or form considering becomming a Roman Catholic. However, I do have several close frends who are Catholic and I thouroughlly (SP?) enjoy going to their Monday evening Prayer and Praise service. It is a very informal service, not in the main church but held in the youth chapel and it is just as the name implies, a short weekly service of prayer and praise. In fact, many of the songs we sing in this service are the very same songs I sang as a kid over at Monterey Bay Academy. Of course, when those charasamatic Catholics get to their talking in tongues I just watch in amazement. I honestly don't have a real opinion on that but it is interesting to me to watch. We all join hands at the end of the service and in unison recite the Our Father. Special requests for prayer are presented and then prayed for. It is a rather semi-formal worshp service. It is completely only lay-parishners that show up. There are always a few non-Catholics in attendence because it is such a lovely worship service. No, Janice, I have not considered converting to Catholic. However, there are a few things about the Catholic faith that I greatly admire. There are also a bunch of things about the Catholic religion that strike me as just plain goofy. So, there you have it on that subject. I wasn't raised so much SDA as I was raised Sabbathtarian. I went to Fresno Adventist Academy for 3rd, 4th, and 5th grades. Fresno is a large city in Central California. Then I went to Monterey Bay Academy in 11th grade and then in 12th grade I went back to Fresno Academy for a bit less than two months. I graduated with my public school friends from the community were I grew up. When I was a kid my parents would take me to Sabbath School at the SDA church and soon as SS was over we'd get in the car and speed across town to catch the semrmon at the Church of God, Seventh-day. We also went to the WCG alot. Mostly, if a church kept Sabbath and had a lot of rules then my parents liked it. That of course left out my favorite church, the Seventh-day Baptist. My dad wouldn't go to that church because as he said, "other than the Sabbath they don't have any doctrines and why would I want to go to a church where you can do anything you want and still think you can get into heaven". He really believed that unless a church had alot of rules then the church was enouraging it's people to lead crummy lives. My dad passed away several months ago at age 93. He was born into a SDA family and stayed pretty much on the SDA course all his life, with the exception of going to other Sabbath-keeping churches sometimes. I regurally attended the Seventh-day Baptist church for around six years and I just love that church and its people. Unfortunatelly the SDB church is nearly 100 miles from where I live and it just got to be too much of a trip for me. I had such a goofy teacher in 5th grade that at age 11 when I was in the 5th grade I made up my mind when I grew up I would not go to my parents dumb religion because as a grown-up I thought I could do anything I wanted. Yes, that is true, that is what I thought when I was in the 5th grade. But, then I did attend Fresno Central SDA church for a great many years as the minister was just wonderful. I don't know if he got fired or if he had pressure on him to resign but anyway he left the SDA denomination and began ministering a non-denominationl church on Saturday mornngs across town. So as long as I lived in that area of California I attended that church. For around three years now I have been attending St. John's Lutheran (ELCA), only becomming a member about half a year ago. I like it there. I'm cool with the teachings, the people, and the coffee is good. (That was ment to be super funny. If you are Lutheran you'll get the inside joke about the coffee. If you are not Lutheran then it won't make much sense to you.) My mother is elderly and is getting more and more dependent on me to get her to and fro. Now that she has become aware that I have actually joined a Lutheran congreation she comes up with somewhere she needs me to take her to every Sunday morning. She used to not go to church much but now she needs me to get her to the SDA church every Saturday morning. That should give you a bit of my biography. And, I'm soon to be a grandmother of TWINS, a boy and a girl. I have a dear sweet husband, four sons, one daughter-in-law, one five year old granddauhter and twin gandchildren on the way, due in May. |
Agapetos (Agapetos)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 8:48 am: | |
Hi everyone,
I've got a hunch about something and want to see if anyone has researched (or will reserach) it.
I grew up in SDA with the phrase "The Law" always referring to "The Ten Commandments" ("10C" from now on)... except of course in the bulk of Paul's writings.
I am wondering, is the phrase "The Law" EVER directly associated with the 10C exclusively in the Bible at all?
Whenever I run across the phrase in the Old Testament and the New, "The Law" seems to be referring to the Torah (Pentateuch) and often indicating the "Book of the Law" -- which included ALL commandments. Similarly, the phrase "the commandments" or "commandments of God" (as well as statutes, precepts) seem to *always* be referring to ALL of God's commandments. I can't pull up a single time in my mind when the 10C were singled out as "The Law" or THE commandments.
Furthermore, when the 10C are singled out, they are either called the "Tablets of the Covenant" or the "Tablets of the Testimony" ... hence the "Ark of the Covenant" and "Ark of the Testimony" was aptly labeled because the covenant/testimony was inside of it!
Hence, the favorite traditional Adventist proof-text, Isaiah 8:20, "to the Law and to the Testimony", would mean this:
Law = book of the Law
Testimony = the covenant & the 10C
Of course this rules out EGW as the "testimony of Jesus" ... if "testimony" and "covenant" are used interchangeably (which they seem to be in Exodus thru Deuteronomy), then the "testimony" and "covenant" that we have now is...
...the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Anyway, my question is this, "Is there any text where the 10C are singled out and referred to as 'The Law of God'?" Is there any time in the Bible when the 10C is exalted above the rest of the Law (Torah)? Is the phrase "Law of God"
I am wondering if we need to change our thinking about what "Law" means when we run across it in the Bible! When we see "Law", I'm wagering that it means God is talking about EVERY command He's given and His own holy, pure & loving nature. When we see "testimony", I wager it means "covenant" and the current *witness* that stands between us and God. (Old or New)
If you've looked into this, or if it's piqued your curiousity to look into it, please let me know. I'd like to have a little textual support to enjoy this paradigm-shift fully.
Thank you & God bless you in Jesus' intense passion for you!
Lost in Him,
Ramone |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 12:31 pm: | |
Ramone,
I just tried to post and my computer said that a reel-time error had occured and closed my post out and I lost it all.
I just wanted to ask if you had read II Corinthians 3 yet? It is proof positive that the "10" commandments were abolished because it directly references the vail that Moses had over his face after coming down from Mt. Sinai where he received the commandments. It also speaks of the laws "written in stone" which further proves that this chapter is referring to the "10" and also makes mention that even to this day, when the Old Testament is read (guess that means the entire books of the law, the first five books of the Bible) that it is still not understood because the vail is still on the faces of those who read it, meaning that they have absolutely no idea of what grace clearly means. It has nothing to do with what we try to accomplish by living right and DOING a bunch of WORKS but it is all about the Sabbath rest which is actually an eternal rest that we find by being "IN" Christ.
All of the Pauline Epistles ring out with that truth, the truth is that we have liberty IN Christ and we have that eternal security that cannot be taken away from us. We Baptists call it "once saved, always saved" and make no apologies for our belief in "THE WORD OF GOD" that assures us of this promise. It is forever settled in glory where my Jesus sits at the right hand of God and makes intercesssion for all of his children that he gave his life for. Jesus even claims that God is NOT going to let him LOSE any of us, amen. What a peace and joy we can have when we come to that place "IN" Christ. He is our glorious SABBATH forever and ever, amen.
Janice |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:07 pm: | |
Romone,
The word usually used for law is nomos and it means:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
of any law whatsoever, a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1aw, by the observance of which is approved of God, a precept or injunction, the rule of action prescribed by reason, of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents, the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love, the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
the word usually used for commandment is entole and means:
an order, command, charge, precept, injunction, that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office, a commandment, a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done, a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood, ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition
When Jesus said "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets it was entole"
When He said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments" it was entole, so therefore the commandments are love God and love your neighbor.
If you don't have a greek study, www.searchgodsword.org is great! |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:16 pm: | |
BTW, the Hebrew word for law in Is. 8:20is Torah, which is the first 5 books of the bible and all of the sacrifices are included in that so, they better get some goats. definition of Torah is:law, direction, instruction
instruction, direction (human or divine)
body of prophetic teaching
instruction in Messianic age
body of priestly direction or instruction
body of legal directives
law
law of the burnt offering
of special law, codes of law
custom, manner
the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law |
Agapetos (Agapetos)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 7:20 pm: | |
Hi everybody,
Thanks for your cool messages.
Is there *ever* a time in the Bible when the word "Law" refers to the 10 Commandments?
Blessings,
Ramone |
Agapetos (Agapetos)
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:02 am: | |
P.S. This is basically a *contextual* question that I'm asking. I can run searches on words, etc., but I'm curious if there is ANY context in the Bible that refers to the 10C as "the Law" or "the Law of God". |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:37 pm: | |
Actually, Ramone, I can't think of any, but I'm not in a place right now to look up any sources. The law does sometimes refer to the "royal law" (as in James) which is the famous Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. But just off the top of my head, I can't think of any time when the word law refers exclusively to the 10 Commandments!
Colleen |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 9:09 pm: | |
Hi Ramone,
Yes, there is a passage where the word "Law" refers to the ten commandments.
Exodus 24:12 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Come up to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the law and the commandment which I have written for their instruction."
The law that God ("I have written") wrote on stone was specifically the ten commandments.
The word "law" is literally "torah" in Hebrew. However, in this case it is apparent from the context, as the text states, that it is not the first 5 books of the Bible, but specifically the ten commandments that is being referred to here.
There are 420 occurrences of the word "law" in the Bible. In the New Testament, the word that is most commonly translated law is the Greek "nomos."
That is where we get the word for the heresy known as "anti-nomian," those who are without law. In today's society, one might think of them as "Christian Anarchists" if there could be such a thing.
However, in all the occurences in the NT, there doesn't seem to be a single one that is referring directly to only the ten commandments. Plenty of the occurences are referring to what Moses brought down from Sinai. That includes the ten commandments as well as the rest of the Torah.
If anyone says that we are freed from the "law of Moses" but try to argue that the ten commandments are still in force for the Christian, they have forgotten that the Law INCLUDES the ten commandments.
Or, perhaps they are deliberately trying to deceive. Or, as I'm realizing more and more, their hearts are veiled and they are UNABLE to discern the truth of the matter, as I was for so many years.
Thanks for the question, it helped me find the following regarding teachers of the law. First Timothy 1:7 says the following:
"wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."
The word that translates into the English phrase "teachers of the law" is:
_______________
nomodidaskalos {nom-od-id-as'-kal-os}
ï doctor of the law, teacher of the law
ï a teacher and interpreter of the law: of those who among Christians went about as champions and
interpreters of the Mosaic law.
_______________
It is just as dangerous, spiritually, to be a teacher or interpreter of the Mosaic law as it is to be an anti-nomian.
Jesus freed us from ALL of the Mosaic law, but did not leave us without Someone to remind us moment by moment what is right and wrong in our lives.
He gave the latter rain on the Day of Pentecost, see Acts chapter 2. We don't need to wait for the Latter Rain in THESE last days. The Latter Rain came, through the Holy Spirit when the Last Days began, on that day in Acts 2.
Hope this is what you were looking for.
Steve |
Agapetos (Agapetos)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:06 pm: | |
Thanks Steve!
So we have *one* text/context so far that can possibly refer to the 10C as the "Law" ... although in this instance (Ex.24:12), it doesn't seem like God is calling it "THE LAW", but instead perhaps ought to be read "laws and commandments". Perhaps.
It's also notable that at this point, the "Book of the Covenant" had already been started (24:7), the Covenant confirmed by blood (24:6), and many various laws had already been given, such as "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk" (23:19) and "Three times a year you are to celebrate a festival to Me" (23:14).
OK, so we've got one possible proof-text for labeling the 10C as "The Law." Maybe. But a doctrine ought to be confirmed by two or three textual witnesses (or a lot more, you'd think... it ought to be a theme!).
So anyone else know of any texts/contexts that support the usage of the word "Law" to apply exclusively to the Ten Commandments and not the rest of the Torah? Even better, is there any such text that calls the 10C the "Law of God"?
Ain't it a paradigm-breaker?
Blessings to you all in Jesus!
Ramone |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:38 pm: | |
Hi Ramone,
I didn't have time to look at all the 420 ocurrences of the phrase "the law." I skimmed a few dozen to get the primary uses of the word.
However, I'll have to spend much more time going over each phrase in the Bible.
I agree with Colleen, there probably isn't a single ocurrence where the phrase "the law" refers strictly to the ten commandments. However, it is safe to recognize that "the law" in almost all cases INCLUDES the ten commandments.
I'm curious, what is your goal in discovering the answer? Just wondering what else I might be looking for.
Steve |
Agapetos (Agapetos)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 8:39 pm: | |
Hi Steve (and others),
I see you are quickly unveiling my nefarious manipulative purposes for asking such a diabolical question, mwahahaha. Just kidding. Maybe. ;)
I asked the question because it really does complete a paradigm-shift. Most Christians --notoriously including Adventists -- have grown up with the idea that "Law" means the Ten Commandments. I don't know if the Puritans or Charleton Heston as Moses put the association together or not, but we could have learned something from hanging around our Jewish friends about what "Law" means ("Torah!").
Because of that association, Christians (again, notoriously including Adventists) have little notion of the Ten Commandments as being a *Covenant*, let alone the OLD Covenant.
Because of the "10C = Law" association, sincere Adventists for years have skimmed right past texts like Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13, not to mention 2nd Corinthians chapter 3.
It was something of an unconscious accepted "common sense" that the Ten Commandments were "the Law", "the Law of God."
The fact that my Jewish friends would shake their heads as we isolated the 10 from the rest never seemed to impact us properly, either.
Basically, the object of my question in this area was so that I can use this information when talking to people about the Covenants and breaking the old "10C = Law" paradigm. I would pray before getting into such a conversation, and then as soon as the paradigm came up, I'd wanna say something like:
"Where does it say that the 10C are the 'Law of God'? How does the Bible refer to the 10C?"
The unconscious paradigm that most Adventists have is to associate the words "law, statute, precept, and commandment" with the Ten Commandments. And such an exclusive association is simply unbiblical. "Law" is much bigger than the 10. I'd like to take that little fact and hopefully use it to open a can of worms, so to speak (the end result being the recognition that the whole Law was a Covenant!). But many Adventists, because of Ellen White's writings, have the idea that "the Law is the character of God" (although now that I think about it, I think I've run into that idea a couple times in mainstream Christianity, as well). With the SDA understanding of "Law = 10C", then the equation turns into "10C = character of God."
And it's simply an old, incomplete revelation of God. God revealed Himself only partially to Moses and the other prophets and fathers. But in Christ He has revealed Himself fully and in the radiance of His glory, so that even all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily. God is "love", and He is seen in the revelation of love when He sent His Son to die for us. His character is seen by that One Act greater than it could ever be seen by our obedience. Isn't the New Covenant FUN?
Blessings in Him,
Ramone |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 9:23 pm: | |
Right on! Ramone.
Post-Adventism, it's amazing how (I used to be guilty) people cut and divide God's word and His Law into sections that serve their purposes.
Being free in Christ has allowed me to see Jesus in every single passage of scripture. The Bible has come alive. It's no longer a bunch of old dead men speaking from the grave. It's God Himself, speaking to us from heaven.
Steve |
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